Tell me about Greyhawk

Moggthegob

First Post
I have started playing Living greyhawk and runing a Greyhawk based home game. However, I am having a hard time devising the story simply because I do not know enough about the History and who does what in the setting. I mean I know about the Circle of Eight(who strike me as a very Avengersish group) and I know the demigodIUZ is ruling the cener of the Flannaess but still, i wish I knew more and some Campaign settign related plot hooks that sort of major.

this group has been meeting regularly for the last 6 years and they decided rather than playing a bunch of shorter campaigns they want to play in a mega-campaign(1-20+). I figured I would use Greyhawk ,becus I dislike Forgotten Realms and I feel as though eberron really has a lack of things for players to do once they hit like 10h level.

So tell me about greyhawk, just in general, and what really big things are,as of yet unresolved there.
 

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About Greyhawk?

Let's go the the archives of teh interweb for the famous/infamous essay, "Putting the Grey in the Hawk", by Nitescreed. For context, this was written back in 1996. The setting (both FR and Greyhawk) have changed since then, as have the rules)

Some terms:
– FtA = From the Ashes, a boxed set that updated the setting with a continent-wide world war where evil was mostly triumphant.
– Iquander = Erik Mona's pseudonym on old Greyhawk fan forums.

Criteria No. 1 Applied Internal Historic Consistency

Greyhawk has a strong internal sense of history that is consistently applied in all Greyhawk" products or creations. However, not every product published under the name "Greyhawk" meets this criteria.

Greyhawk is a storied realm. It's seminal figures, good and ill, are interwoven throughout the setting. It has a defined history that strongly influences the present and future of the setting. Greyhawk's history is not a footnote but an integral part of the setting that must be understood to truly comprehend the relationships among men, nations and even gods. True "Greyhawk" products or creations build on this history, incorporate it and develop it. The best such products or creations leave enough open ends to allow for further such development. More mediocre attempt closure of every loose thread.


Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events

The seminal events in Greyhawk's current history and development are all presented such that the players may not only take part but play a leading role.

Players could fight the Greyhawk Wars. Players defeated the hordes of the Temple of Elemental Evil. Players defeated Lolth. Players turned the tide as Iuz aced Vecna.

In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Ao decrees an event and the players get to clean up in the aftermath. Cyric destroys Zhentil Keep offstage and the players get to delve into the ruins. Gods die to be replaced by mortals and the players watch. Elminster sends players on a mission but ultimately keeps from them the greater goal the mission serves.

When you play in Greyhawk, you join in the weaving of a tapestry of which you are a vital part. Greyhawk is about your story in the context of Greyhawk's story. Roleplaying in Greyhawk involves playing your part in the longest running AD&D campaign in existence. It is bigger than you are but you can become as great as it is. That is the essence of Greyhawk's history. It enfolds, informs and connects every part of the setting and all who play there of any length of time.


Criteria No. 3 NPCs Reward More Often Than They Advise or Direct

NPC's in Greyhawk are not godlike figures who direct the course of events upon which your character is washed like the tide. Neither do they persistently show up to advise you. They may do both but more often they serve as the measuring stick against which your character's performance can be judged and serve to reward your character by recognizing their accomplishments or otherwise admitting your character into their august company.

The Circle of Eight are aloof. They do not want to be your buddy. Neither do they have a laundry list of chores for you to perform. Rather, in Greyhawk you will find adventure without such NPCs suggesting it.

In the Forgotten Realms, for example, Elminster is famous for sending characters on their way. The Harpers do the same. Ultimately, Elminster or the Harpers play the directing role and may indeed appear to steal the show or otherwise claim ultimate victory.

In Greyhawk, YOU are the hero. Without assistance from the likes of the Circle of Eight and without them acting as a safety net. You can go your own way, in fact, without them ever troubling you. This cannot be so simply said in settings such as the Forgotten Realms and has not a little to do with Criteria No. 2 (Player Resolution of Critical Events in Greyhawk vs. NPC Resolution of Critical Events in FR).

Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil

Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked or imprisoned but it is not defeated with finality for all time. The triumph over evil is a relative thing, ultimately transitory.

Evil in Greyhawk is personified. Evil has faces and names attached to it that ring down through the setting's history. It is not an evil that pops up purely to give the players something to strive against and defeat before moving on to the next evil that similarly appears out of relative nowhere.

Vecna, Iuz, Lolth, Tharzidun, the Scarlet Brotherhood, Aerdi, Kas, even Turrosh Mak, all met this criteria. They are highly personified forces that spring from the settings specific history. By comparison, evil in the Forgotten Realms is of the pop-up variety save for the Red Wizards and Zhentrim. Menaces appear from nowhere or with on the spot histories that never before appeared in the setting. Greyhawk allows for this type of toaster villainy but it also established from the first villains of a historic character that transcend the needs of the adventure of the moment.

Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety

Villainy in Greyhawk runs the gambit from the cosmic menace of Tharzidun, to the planar peril of Lolth, to the cambion menace of Iuz, to the purely moral menace of Turrosh Mak. Their is variety in the villainy. Villainy in Greyhawk is like a box of chocolates from Hell; you never know for sure what you are going to get (Best Example: The Giant Series). Greyhawk's villains do not announce themselves; you have to figure it out.

Compare villainy in the Forgotten Realms. The variety isn't there. You have scads of godly villains. The Red Wizards. The Zhents. It is feast or famine. And FR villains have signature trademarks that all but announce who you are facing, unless of course it is an evil toaster pastry.

Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other. The Iuz/Vecna conflict being perhaps the most famous. In other settings, villains are villains, identified by their clearly visible placards, sandwich signs or more "subtly" their black attire. You can count on them to always do the wrong thing.

Greyhawk keeps you guessing. Like a good Call of Cthulthu adventure.

Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price

Greyhawk's heros rarely slay the evil wizard, who will trouble the land no more, to the full voiced cheers of the crowd. Best Iuz and you are marked. He will be back but you will have to deal with a likely enraged Zuggotomy in the meanwhile. Greyhawk's villains don't exist in a vacuum and neither do Greyhwk's heroes. Everything is linked.

Heroism has a meaning within the setting that makes it more than a solitary act echoing in the vastness. It attracts attention, good and ill. It is immediate and brings a notoriety that other settings can only talk about. Notables exist to recognize your accomplishments and to measure you against themselves and the foe you defeated. And, they will have likely played little or no role in your victory. Evil too takes your measure for darker reasons.

This criterion can best be seen in the breach. The interconnection of people and places and the loose ends creates this effect, though few published adventures use it to motivate future adventures. The revised supermodule series provides the greatest opportunity on this score.

Criteria No. 7 Militant Neutrality

On Oerth, the forces of neutrality are arguably at least as powerful as those of good and evil and certainly as active.

Iquander alone has accurately defined this characteristic of Greyhawk and I acknowledge his work. Greyhawk is not concerned with the triumph of good over evil. The very nature of the evils loose on Oerth makes such triumphs fleeting at best. Greyhawk endures evil and circumvents it. It does not defeat it.

Evil forces, of course, will attempt to conquer Oerth. And just as certainly they will be opposed by forces who will seek to banish evil from the world. Neither will succeed. Neither in the long history of Oerth has ever succeeded. Good and evil are well enough matched that outcomes are never certain and always close calls one way or the other.

Moreover, evil on Oerth is not monolithic. Various demon lords and ladies contend with each other. Iuz battles Vecna. Kas seeks Vecna's destruction. Iuz feuds with his mother and father. Evil beings are true to no one save themselves.

Perhaps accounting for all of this, Oerth has strong and active neutrally aligned forces, working to preserve a balance between good and evil. While hardly organized, these forces nonetheless manage to be quite effective. The Circle of Eight, mighty wizards all, seeks a middle path. Istus, the divine Lady of Fate, tests all but favors none. Druids are a quiet but ever present presence. Indeed, many of Greyhawk's deities reflect a distinct neutral bent.

Compare Toril. Evil is overmatched by Elminster, the Seven Sisters (good aligned minions of the goddess of magic), the Harpers, the Lords of Waterdeep and activist gods. Evil is on the run and kept that way. It has but few strong holds and is highly transient, rarely surviving long enough to present more than a temporary challenge. Good triumphs on Toril. The dragon is slain, never to rise. The horror you never heard of before yesterday is laid to rest. The bad gods are thrown down!

The differences could not be more striking. Greyhawk is about struggle against evenly matched and long standing opponents. FR is about victory over transient and overmatched opponents.

Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics

Greyhawk is not a low fantasy setting save by comparison to settings on magical overload. Birthright is a low fantasy setting. The Forgotten Realms is a high fantasy setting. Greyhawk falls in between.

What distinguishes magic in Greyhawk is that it is highly personalized. Look at the spells. Mordenkain's this. Nystul's that. Otiluke's the other. Magic is personalized by any wizard not of the hedge variety. Look at the artifacts for still more proof. What Birthright strives to achieve sparingly, Greyhawk has already accomplished in fair profusion. Spells have a history as due magic items. While there are +1 swords of no certain fame, many are the items with specific histories. Look at the Greyhawk Adventures hardback.

Similarly magical instruction in Greyhawk is personal. Greyhawk does not know great guilds of wizards but flourishes with a developed system of apprenticeships. One need but look at the Circle of Eight to see this. They, with one, possibly two, exceptions, belong to no guild of mages, and they that do belong do so as patrons at best and more probably as figureheads. Neither can the Circle itself be considered a guild. This mighty example and the utter lack of a single magical guild of any note, fairly well makes the case.

I will at a later point post more directly on this subject as I found the article in the Oerth Journal about wizardly organizations purest fantasy, out of keeping with the available information on magic in Greyhawk, though the article was still interesting for all that.

These then are the eight traits that define the Greyhawk feel. Most critical are 1st (Applied Internal Historic Consistency), 4th (Persistent Personified Evil) and 7th (Militant Neutrality) points. At the barest minimum to be considered truly "Greyhawk" a product or creation must adhere to these three criteria. Better products or creations adhere to progressively more of these criteria.

Without doing a full dress analysis of From the Ashes, I think we can see that it utterly fails to adhere to the 7th criterion. FtA throws neutrality out the window in favor of paring off goods and evils in a Flaneass tilted wildly toward evil. Furondy/Nyrond is pared off with Iuz. Aerdi is pared off with Nyrond. Keoland is paired off with the Scarlet Brotherhood/Pomarj. While overall, evil is clearly ascendent. This sort of dark fantasy, whatever its merits otherwise, defies the tradition of active neutrality that defined Greyhawk beforehand. That about half all WoG players rejected FtA supports this hypothesis. FtA's designers, to include the Greyhawk Wars, were ignorant, willfully or otherwise, of the setting in which they worked. The resulting products while technically proficient, even well done on their own merits, were sadly lacking in that Greyhawk feel. Of course, some would choose to ignore this, finding the change "bracing," others with duller senses wouldn't even notice.

In any event, now we have a list of what puts the Grey in the Hawk. This list is by no means exclusive. I may have overlooked something and I know some listed criteria are of lesser note than others or mere permutations. However, I think overall the list can stand up to close scrutiny. Have at it.​
 

For Living Greyhawk, it might depend a lot on where you live/your game is set, but I've always found the fallout from the Great Kingdom going kablooey is a rich vein for adventures. The status of those living in the Shield Lands -- explicitly between the rock and the hard place and getting smashed badly, last I looked -- is another great one. And, of course, places like the Wild Coast and Bandit Kingdoms are full of adventure 24/7, whether it's slavers/bandits, humanoids, not-so-nice adventurer types or whatever.

It's a busy world with a lot of STUFF happening to ordinary people. I'd pick an area you're interested in, think of how much it would suck to be a Commoner 1 there, and put your player characters in a position to cushion the blow somewhat. The adventures will flow from there.
 

Key elements of the World of Greyhawk include:
-- a sensibility drawn from early to mid-20th-century fantasy, mainly sword and sorcery
-- moulded by conventions of wargaming and inseparable from the original ethos of D&D: treasure-hunting in dungeons, hirelings, searching for traps, etc.
-- close influence from historical European models, from social structure to polearms
-- Gary Gygax's particular wit and wacko tendencies here and there.

Eric Anondson said:
Let's go the the archives of teh interweb for the famous/infamous essay, "Putting the Grey in the Hawk", by Nitescreed.
Why? It's divisive, misleading, grossly ignorant of the Realms, and inaccurate and inarticulate about Greyhawk.
 

For me, there are several key traits to Greyhawk:

-LOW POWER LEVELS

Being 7th level means you're somebody of note. Having a +1 shield makes you a force to be reckoned with. The most powerful characters in the land range from 12th to 18th level, with only a very select few being higher than 20th.

This means that the fantastic is just that-fantastic-and that fantastical characters are almost unheard of. That means no Dragon Shamans, no Fire Genasi, no wacky prestige classes, nothing like that. You want to play a character, you play a human, dwarf, elf, gnome, half-elf, half-orc, or halfling. Dragons, genasi and things like that are fantastical and bizarre, and are not common enough to walk down the street-to do something like that would be pure suicide.

Oh, and no Chosen of Mystra either or random 20th-level wizards or high-level NPCs. No one gets to high level without an extensive history.

-SHADES OF GREY

See that temple of Incabulos, god of nightmares, disease and plague? Don't go barging in and harassing his priests, or else you'll be arrested and face criminal charges. Temples to evil gods operate openly in "good" countries, and temples to good gods operate openly in "evil" countries.

Yes, Furyondy and Onnwal are 'good' countries, but that doesn't mean women are allowed to inherit estates, serve in the army, become sages, or really do anything without the permission of their husbands and/or fathers. Some exceptions exist, but women can be and are often heavily restricted.

See those goblin women and children? Dwarves take them back for sacrifice-living sacrifice-to the dwarfish gods. After all, the orcs and goblins sacrifrice dwarves, so why can't the dwarves return the favor? They're just goblins, after all.

Sorry, membership in the mercenaries' guild is restricted. No women, elves or halflings allowed. PERIOD.

Slavery is open and legal in Nyrond, Greyhawk, Dyvers, the Wild Coast, and the Aerdy lands, and indentured servitude, where a debtor or convict's services can be bought and sold, is perfectly legal in Keoland and Sterich. What, you honestly think they're going to let morals get in the way when there's profit to be had?

-NPCS IN THE BACKGROUND

Hello, my name is Mordenkainen. No, I do not want to be your friend. If I want you to do something, I will manipulate you into doing it. No, I do not dance or have a merry time of it. If you need my help, I don't care if you live or die, unless I get some advantage out of it. No, I am not imbued with part of this world's magical ether. And besides, chances are I won't deal with you anyway-if you and I cross paths, fine, but don't expect me to help you with your problems just out of the goodness of my heart.

Hello, my name is Belvor, king of Furyondy. Yes, I am a paladin and I try to be as honest, brave and just as possible, but politics is oftentimes a harsh business. I can't always respond to every request for help that comes my way-I cannot afford to throw away limited resources or the lives of my men on just any simple crusade. Yes, I'm sad that those dwarves and elves got driven out of their homes, but what do you expect me to do about it? They are not my citizens, and I have no obligation to them. What would I tell a war widow if her husband was killed fighting for something that had nothing to do with Furyondy? Soldiers join my army to defend their kingdom, not to simply crusade for good across the Flanaess. If we go to war in support of someone, it will be because of a mutual defense treaty, but I can't intervene in every single political problem that crops up-do you honestly think other rulers would tolerate my meddling in their sovereign affairs?

Hello, my name is Tenser. Yes, I'm a goodly wizard, and- what? You expect me to just drop everything and run to help you? Look, I can probably give you some help, but I'm getting rather long in the tooth, and I really can't be fighting on the frontlines anymore. I'll do the research, craft the magic item, or do whatever else you need help with, but don't expect me to fight by your side. I'm getting too old for that kind of nonsense. It's best left to a young whippersnapper like you.

-NO INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTIONS

A gun? Are you crazy, or just stupid? Everyone knows that "gunpowder" stuff doesn't work here!

A what? An "internal combustion engine?" From what land do you hail, or are you simply a fool? Oil doesn't burn that way, every alchemist knows that! You can use it to burn trolls, oil mechanisms, or whatever, but it will never combust and produce energy the way you expect it to!

Steam power? Steam can't power anything! The gnomes use leverage-they tried working with oil and steam, and both were as useless as the Army of Keoland!

Mankind will never learn to fly, without the help of magic. Sorcery, not science, rules this world! Everyone knows that!
 
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Thanks for that pointer, Merric, I've got a bunch of players who know nada about GH, and I need some intro materials to help orient them a little :D
 

grodog said:
Thanks for that pointer, Merric, I've got a bunch of players who know nada about GH, and I need some intro materials to help orient them a little :D

No problems, Allan!

Good news! I'm writing a sequel, which will include material up to 591 CY! Should be ready for editing later today.

Cheers!
 

Allan - the new article has been finished and submitted to Canonfire! If you're still an editor, and you want it, go have a look. :)

Cheers!
 

Eric Anondson said:
Let's go the the archives of teh interweb for the famous/infamous essay, "Putting the Grey in the Hawk", by Nitescreed. For context, this was written back in 1996.

This was a great essay. I'll highlight the bits that still true in my current Greyhawk game, after all these years. It's good to be reminded I'm running it right!

Nitescreed said:
Criteria No. 2 Player Resolution of Critical Events

The seminal events in Greyhawk's current history and development are all presented such that the players may not only take part but play a leading role.

. . . Players defeated the hordes of the Temple of Elemental Evil. Players defeated Lolth. . . .

When you play in Greyhawk, you join in the weaving of a tapestry of which you are a vital part. Greyhawk is about your story in the context of Greyhawk's story. Roleplaying in Greyhawk involves playing your part in the longest running AD&D campaign in existence. It is bigger than you are but you can become as great as it is. That is the essence of Greyhawk's history. It enfolds, informs and connects every part of the setting and all who play there of any length of time.

Criteria No. 4 Persistent Personified Evil

Evil in Greyhawk is persistent. It is halted, checked or imprisoned but it is not defeated with finality for all time. The triumph over evil is a relative thing, ultimately transitory.
. . .

Criteria No. 5 Villainous Variety
. . .
Greyhawk's villains do not announce themselves; you have to figure it out.
. . .
Villains in Greyhawk will also turn on each other.
. . .

Criteria No. 6 Heroism With a Price

Greyhawk's heros rarely slay the evil wizard, who will trouble the land no more, to the full voiced cheers of the crowd. Best Iuz and you are marked. He will be back but you will have to deal with a likely enraged Zuggotomy in the meanwhile. Greyhawk's villains don't exist in a vacuum and neither do Greyhwk's heroes. Everything is linked.

Heroism has a meaning within the setting that makes it more than a solitary act echoing in the vastness. It attracts attention, good and ill. It is immediate and brings a notoriety that other settings can only talk about. Notables exist to recognize your accomplishments and to measure you against themselves and the foe you defeated. And, they will have likely played little or no role in your victory. Evil too takes your measure for darker reasons.
. . .


Criteria No. 8 Personal Magics

. . .
Similarly magical instruction in Greyhawk is personal. Greyhawk does not know great guilds of wizards but flourishes with a developed system of apprenticeships.
. . .

Without doing a full dress analysis of From the Ashes, I think we can see that it utterly fails t. . . . This sort of dark fantasy, whatever its merits otherwise, defies the tradition of active neutrality that defined Greyhawk beforehand. That about half all WoG players rejected FtA supports this hypothesis. FtA's designers, to include the Greyhawk Wars, were ignorant, willfully or otherwise, of the setting in which they worked. The resulting products while technically proficient, even well done on their own merits, were sadly lacking in that Greyhawk feel.
. . .
[/INDENT]
 

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