Tell me about medieval armies!

There's certainly a lot of classical stuff dealing with barbaric women on the front lines or commanding troops. Herodotus is full of it as are Roman manuscripts on the Celts.

I do imagine that upper body strength was a big issue, but, on the other hand...

...or rather as I've heard it said...

...there are a lot of nutty people out there and it makes a lot of sense, from a melee warfare perspective, to put those people, regardless of gender, on the front lines.

They're nutty, they won't mind, and front-line is almost certainly gonna die so the fact that they don't mind is gonna have a positive effect on your moral and a nice negative benefit for your enemies.
 

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There were many, many women with armies up until at least the thirty years war. They were prostitutes, they cooked food, they made stuff etc. There werent probably many soldiers while most soldiers were enlisted to that specific war (very few from the people really wanted to be a soldier so the king had to force them; its very improbable that the recruiters went for women when enlisting).

The standing armies of the Viking kings were also small. A noble with 10 armed men held quite a lot of power in his region. I also dont think that many of them were just soldiers. They probably worked at the farm (as the noble also did if he wasnt very powerful) when not fighting or training.
 

txwad said:
Agemegos said:
Note well!

My preceding post is a quote of material that I wrote as a prospectus for a campaign set in AD 1291..."

Damn Agemegos knows his medieval history! Its a pity you live on the wrong side of the earth, :eek: , I'd love to play in your campaign.

Who says these games are bad for your education?! Seriously, all my formal studies were in Ancient History and Modern History. Mediaeval was the period left out, and what I know of it is all from researching background for RPGs.

As for that campaign, it might have been a little weirder than you expect. The PCs were killed in the first session in a squabble with the Templars, but didn't quite realise what had happened: they thought they had taken refuge in the small and obscure commandery of an unusually fell brother-sergeant of the Order of St Lazarus. After dinner (and they weren't sure whether this was in a dream) the fell sergeant offered them a choice of any one item each they chose from an absolutely fantastic treasury: the Sword of Roland, etc., etc. After they thus chose their fates, Death sent them back to the beach where they had died on a mission to recover the Holy Grail from Prester John. They wandered through fabulous versions of Africa, the Middle East, and Central Asia for a while, but the campaign collapsed before they discovered the Thomasine church in Southern India, so they never did get around to finding the Holy Grail, meeting the fates they had chosen symbolically in the House of Death, and laying down their lives to save the Templars.
 

Agemegos said:
and laying down their lives to save the Templars.

Saving the Templars! Oh no! Militant orders of bankers would be an odd thing to have around today.

Sounds like a very cool campaign.

Have you read the Chretien de Troye "Percival"? One of my favorite choose everybodies' fate scenes.

Particularly since, in the classic style of PCs everywhere, he gets it wrong.
 

Agemegos said:
Who says these games are bad for your education?! Seriously, all my formal studies were in Ancient History and Modern History. Mediaeval was the period left out, and what I know of it is all from researching background for RPGs.

I knew an Economics professor who claimed that the intellectual inquiry incited by games would make generation Y greater than the TV addicted Gen X and Baby Boomers.

Certainly a fair amount of similar theory in Composition and Rhetoric.

I don't know yet, sometimes I see students who have learned too much from CRPGs and not enough from Table Top.

You can see a sort of "Extra Credit +1, preparing Brown Nose attack," bubble pop up over their heads from time to time.
 

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
Saving the Templars! Oh no! Militant orders of bankers would be an odd thing to have around today.

Well, I wasn't thinking of saving the Templars from Philip le Bel, Guillaume de Nogaret, and Esquiu de Florian, so much as rescuing them from the wickness that made them vulnerable to worldly machinations. It was set up to be a big turn the other cheek, bring the stray lamb back to the fold Christian sort of thing.

Have you read the Chretien de Troye "Percival"? One of my favorite choose everybodies' fate scenes.

No, I haven't. And given that my girlfriend has just cut me off at teh knees, perhaps now would be a good time to wallow in mediaeval misogyny.
 

Agemegos said:
Well, I wasn't thinking of saving the Templars from Philip le Bel, Guillaume de Nogaret, and Esquiu de Florian, so much as rescuing them from the wickness that made them vulnerable to worldly machinations. It was set up to be a big turn the other cheek, bring the stray lamb back to the fold Christian sort of thing.



No, I haven't. And given that my girlfriend has just cut me off at teh knees, perhaps now would be a good time to wallow in mediaeval misogyny.

Ok, now that is truly awesome. With regard to that I highly recommend the Chretian story.

My google foo is terrible today, I feel certain you can find a free copy of that story someplace, but I can't get a ping for it.

but, if it's mediaeval misogyny you want...

...there's some good debates on whether or not women have souls, and a very odd and funny couple of misogynistic pieces called the City of Women, though one of them is actually a proto-feminist piece that is a satire of the rest of them. So, all the way around you get funny.
 
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With respect to the "women in combat" (sounds like a playboy issue) thread, Im not saying that a student of medieval history doesnt need to know Queen Elizabeth of England, Theodora of Byzantium, Joan of Arc, Eleanor of Acquitaine, Boadicea of the Iceni and a dozen others. Im not saying that women didnt occasionally fight (the Scythian females supposedly did en masse defensively). Of course, we've all read a few accounts of women crossdressers who served as a soldier or a pirate. But thats the point, thats like saying that Africa or the Islamic world is prosperous. Of course, one can cite a few modest examples (botswana or abu dhabi is kinda interesting) but the percentages indicate that the general proposition is false. If a military history student from 400 bc to 1600 ad didnt even bother to learn anything about any woman except the few above, he could be an A+ student. They simply didnt "matter" for the most part, if matter is defined narrowly as directly determining the outcome of the battle. Honestly, women barely (from a quantitative perspective) serve in active combat NOW (from an overall global military perspective and modern warfare is far less physically demanding).

Where women did matter from a historical military perspective most of all IMHO, is as loot or booty or as a culturally maintained reproductive reward. Think about the Vikings, Mongols and Turks, half of the goal of their depredations was to obtain/rape women. One of the turkish rulers delighted in being served by the naked wives and daughters of his foes. The Zulus illustrate this very clearly. Shaka ordered their society very clearly, where men were formed into age-ordered cohorts and forbidden to marry (though not to have certain forms of prepenetration sex) until they achieved X in combat. Talk about a powerful incentive to prove your bravery and run the risk of death! Think of such a society as having cultural eugenics reproductively favoring bravery, etc. On a more western note, think of the traditional injunction of the spartan woman "come home with your shield (ie dont run) or on it."

Lets simply admit the obvious. One man is capable of fertilizing dozens of women. Men are thus as Lionel Tiger observed, "disposable". In other words, a society can kill off a big chunk of every male generation and still reproduce. History treated men accordingly. Anyone who grew up in a rough or poor portion of modern America has an inkling of this, by observing the death rates and sexual patterns of gang members. Modern gang members in the inner city are not that different from scandinavian farmers who went "a viking" or shakas zulu warriors with aggressive members having high rates of reproductive activity with multiple partners and having an extremely high attrition rate.

My point is simply if you want to talk about the dynastic wiles of Elizabeth of England or Eleanor of Acquitaine, thats cool if you want to talk about the role of women as prostitute disease vectors carrying syphilis in the early sixteenth century thats fine. If you want to discuss a few hundred exceptional women who served as a soldier, pirate etc thats cool. But the point is that these were regarded at the time and should be regarded now as "exceptional" and therefore it is patently absurd to discuss such until one understands dozens of other aspects of medieval military/society worked.

Strangemonkey, Im not offended by anything you've written. I just believe that modern academia (in general) takes such great pains not to offend anyone in our diverse society that it focuses on "case studies" (like woman pirate X) that reflect the individual and the particular and misses the broader picture of how premodern and certain segments of modern society really function. In addition, from the perspective of someone who was a part of academic society for a long time and then moved on to financially greener pastures in the real world, academic language is 'orwellian' in the sense that it obfuscates rather than illuminates. Those are the main points that I find exception to in your writing.
 

I think roleplayers just want to know if it's possible to have an (exceptional) female Fighter in a 'realistic' medieval type setting, or if she ought to be posing as a man, etc. We all know there were no female combat troops in WW1, many of us know that there were a good number of female combat troops in the WW2 Soviet army but none in the US, German, Japanese or British armies, but few know anything about the middle ages.
 

S'mon said:
I think roleplayers just want to know if it's possible to have an (exceptional) female Fighter in a 'realistic' medieval type setting, or if she ought to be posing as a man, etc. We all know there were no female combat troops in WW1, many of us know that there were a good number of female combat troops in the WW2 Soviet army but none in the US, German, Japanese or British armies, but few know anything about the middle ages.

OF COURSE! It is a fantasy game. Surely, if you can have wizards throwing fireballs, you can have babes in bikini chainmail wielding swords (at least it is a common motif in fantasy art)! On a more serious note, the point I was making is that if you are into 'realism' in your fantasy game (an oxymoron?), you can have some women fighters and warrior leaders, just dont litter the battlefield with them, make them exceptional in some sense.
 

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