Tell Me About Your Experiences With High Level 5E

[Eric V]

Do the default assumptions work for most groups? Probably not. So turn it up to 11. Or 12, or 20. Increase your XP budget to whatever number you need. Try different tactics or limit the number of rests between encounters. The solution is going to vary by group and there's no one answer.

That's probably true, but this: "this adventure is made for 45 DPR 20 AC 90 hp heroes" is much more directly useful than a metaphorical "turn the dial to 11" no? Some old 2e mods, in addition to saying what level they were for, on the cover, would include, on the inside, additional DM information for the type of group they would be most successful at it (I'm thinking the type of advice found in City of Skulls for the DM, for example).

I mean, why not include that? That would be really helpful.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Who suggested expected damage per level? Or dry and boring? Or anything from 4E really? (I just suggested that instead of byzanthine encounter guidelines, how about stating (making up numbers here) "this adventure is made for 45 DPR 20 AC 90 hp heroes" allowing DMs - for the first time - actually useful parameters to judge their own party's capabilities against. Minmaxers then count as level N+3 heroes, while naive newbies might count as N-2 heroes. In no way do I advocate changing any actual rules. I was just suggesting to completely scrap all existing attempt to hide the actual numbers that count.

If you base encounter guidelines on things like DPR and AC, rather than level, then optimization becomes counter-productive. You get to a situation where the fighter has to seriously consider throwing away their equipment, because fighting N+3 enemies is far more dangerous than fighting N-2 enemies. You get the situation from Final Fantasy VIII, where a random encounter will kick your butt if you grind up to level 100, but the same encounter will be a pushover if you avoid gaining any levels.

It's really not the sort of message that the designers should be sending.

 

[Eric V]

If you base encounter guidelines on things like DPR and AC, rather than level, then optimization becomes counter-productive. You get to a situation where the fighter has to seriously consider throwing away their equipment, because fighting N+3 enemies is far more dangerous than fighting N-2 enemies. You get the situation from Final Fantasy VIII, where a random encounter will kick your butt if you grind up to level 100, but the same encounter will be a pushover if you avoid gaining any levels.

It's really not the sort of message that the designers should be sending.

It would help me in terms of adventure purchase. I can buy this one knowing it's more of a challenge to my particular group than that one, even if they both are ostensibly for 9th level characters.

Going further with the idea, a mystery-based adventure could have additional advice like "Characters trained in Investigation and Bluff will be key to succeeding in this adventure; a character with telepathic abilities could fill this role." A political adventure would have something similar, with different emphasis, obviously.

It's not clear to me how providing more information would hurt. I will admit to never having played Final Fantasy.

 

[robus]

Well the proof will be in the pudding with the Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign. That's supposed to level all the way up to 20, so we'll finally get to see what WotC thinks a campaign at that level should look like and we'll get some first hand reports from tables trying to play it. DMs will of course have to turn some knobs to tune to their table (I wonder if there'll be guidance on that...?)

Anyway should be good for a few hundred posts!

 

[Oofta]

That's probably true, but this: "this adventure is made for 45 DPR 20 AC 90 hp heroes" is much more directly useful than a metaphorical "turn the dial to 11" no? Some old 2e mods, in addition to saying what level they were for, on the cover, would include, on the inside, additional DM information for the type of group they would be most successful at it (I'm thinking the type of advice found in City of Skulls for the DM, for example).

I mean, why not include that? That would be really helpful.

I get where you're coming from and philosophically I agree. I just don't think it's that simple. Most people wouldn't know how to calculate DPR, or know what the DPR of their party is. Personally I only have cursory understanding of my player's character's capabilities. Yes, my wife's barbarian can do a ludicrous amount of damage, but how many encounters will she be raging? Tim's assassin does massive damage the first round, how does that average out over the course of the typical encounter? How many encounters will there be between long rests?

Instead of being in every adventure, I think there probably could have been (should have been?) a chapter in the DMG on this kind of stuff. It still probably wouldn't have been adequate. I just don't think there's a way to break it down to a scientific equation.

It's been easier in other versions for various reasons, either because options were more simple or more easily quantifiable.

 

[Quartz]

That's been basically true for anything above about 12th level since the game came out in the '70's.

There were many high level adventures in Dungeon Magazine.

 

[shadowoflameth]

I ran a game that went to high levels; 20th level with one Epic Boon. The big bad was a half dragon Empyreon. He made every save and the party members failed every save and still mopped up the mat with him.

 

[Reynard]

Tomorrow night is the first, combat centered test. Five 17th level PCs versus a bunch of demons in a ruined city. I'll be curious to see how long it takes.

 

[S'mon]

I ran a game that went to high levels; 20th level with one Epic Boon. The big bad was a half dragon Empyreon. He made every save and the party members failed every save and still mopped up the mat with him.

IMC a level 19 berserker barbarian PC solo duelled an empyrean with double attacks & 5 points higher AC - it was very close thanks to a lot of failed Stun saves, but the barbarian won.

If you want to seriously challenge 4 good level 20 PCs you really need multiple CR 20+ creatures I think.

 

[Oofta]

I ran a game that went to high levels; 20th level with one Epic Boon. The big bad was a half dragon Empyreon. He made every save and the party members failed every save and still mopped up the mat with him.

Solos have never worked very well. You either need legendary along with lair actions and a CR several levels above the PCs or minions. I usually throw in minions that are high enough level to be distracting and dangerous that can also help prevent or deflect attacks against the BBEG.

I guess it can be done if the solo can use hit-and-run tactics, but just a straight up fight? Nah. It's too much focused fire.