Tell Me Everything There Is To Know About Push, Pull & Slide

[Wolfwood2]

I have a question about forced movement and large creatures. (That is, creatures occupying 4 or more squares.) Can you use forced movement to move a creature into a space that it has to squeeze to occupy, because its allies or your allies are blocking one of the squares it needs?

Second question. Does the saving throw apply to moving creatures into terrain that will cause them damage when they start their turn there, as opposed to when they enter the terrain? Let's say, for example, that there's a lava river and creatures starting their turn next to it take X damage. Does an enemy get a saving throw against being slid next to the river, even though he won't actually take damage until he starts his turn there?

 

[eamon]

I have a question about forced movement and large creatures. (That is, creatures occupying 4 or more squares.) Can you use forced movement to move a creature into a space that it has to squeeze to occupy, because its allies or your allies are blocking one of the squares it needs?

PHB 286:

Clear Path: Forced movement can't move a target into a space it couldn't enter by walking. The target can't be forced into an obstacle or made to squeeze into a space.
​

Second question. Does the saving throw apply to moving creatures into terrain that will cause them damage when they start their turn there, as opposed to when they enter the terrain? Let's say, for example, that there's a lava river and creatures starting their turn next to it take X damage. Does an enemy get a saving throw against being slid next to the river, even though he won't actually take damage until he starts his turn there?

A saving throw is granted when the creature is pushed into "hindering" terrain. This concept isn't fully defined, but it's explored on DMG.61. Some examples are pits, deep water, lava or fire. In short: it's up to the DM. If the terrain is nasty, they get a saving throw.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, it is totally up to the DM. Terrain interactions in general, aside a few well specified cases, are really heavily in the realm of DM interpretation. Other examples are things like the DMG says a DM could have a monster or pc that is pushed fly over a pit and land on the other side. Terrain is really stage dressing for the DM to use how he sees fit. Ultimately I have the feeling the same is pretty much true with zones, etc. If the DM thinks damage shouldn't trigger or a save should be granted, then it is. I mean forced teleport is essentially at that point officially now too.

 

[eamon]

Yeah, it is totally up to the DM. Terrain interactions in general, aside a few well specified cases, are really heavily in the realm of DM interpretation. Other examples are things like the DMG says a DM could have a monster or pc that is pushed fly over a pit and land on the other side. Terrain is really stage dressing for the DM to use how he sees fit. Ultimately I have the feeling the same is pretty much true with zones, etc. If the DM thinks damage shouldn't trigger or a save should be granted, then it is. I mean forced teleport is essentially at that point officially now too.

Most zones trigger when a creature enters them - by any means. Excluding rule 0 here, I don't really see how such zones wouldn't trigger when a creature is forced into them. According to the FAQ, the same would hold for the wall of fire (and by extension and the notion that forced movement is movement, for anything that triggers on "moving into"), though that phrasing is much much more rare.

On the other hand, though most seemed to think that no saves should be granted when forced into a damaging spell zone (i.e. not to consider spell effects hindering terrain), there's no clear definition there, so that argument is not easily refuted. On the other hand, by consistency, I'd say most logical would actually be to let the creature determine what it thinks is hindering terrain and make the attempt to drop prone in time optional - but that would affect balance.

 

[DracoSuave]

Most zones trigger when a creature enters them - by any means. Excluding rule 0 here, I don't really see how such zones wouldn't trigger when a creature is forced into them. According to the FAQ, the same would hold for the wall of fire (and by extension and the notion that forced movement is movement, for anything that triggers on "moving into"), though that phrasing is much much more rare.

True, but remember that forced movement requires a bit more than a single square to enter the wall of fire; all movement into a wall of fire costs 3 extra squares... a single one square push won't cut it.

On the other hand, though most seemed to think that no saves should be granted when forced into a damaging spell zone (i.e. not to consider spell effects hindering terrain), there's no clear definition there, so that argument is not easily refuted.

Sure it is. Terrain is not the same as a power effect. Also, terrain is not creatures, nor is it a magic item. If a fighter has Reaper's Stance active, is -that- hindering terrain? No, that's a fighter power in action. And yet, if you had terrain that dealt damage + ongoing damage to anyone who was in it at the start of their turns, it -would- be hindering terrain.

So, if you force someone to move adjacent to a fighter, no, it's -not- hindering terrain, and there is no saving throw.

Changing 'fighter' to 'wizard' and 'move adjacent' to 'enter a zone' doesn't change the basic principle involved. Powers only create terrain when they explicitly state so.

On the other hand, by consistency, I'd say most logical would actually be to let the creature determine what it thinks is hindering terrain and make the attempt to drop prone in time optional - but that would affect balance.

Creatures don't get to determine when they get to make saving throws--otherwise they'd wisely consider any position on the battlefield to be hindering terrain if it were not to their advantage.

The thing to remember is that Wall of Fire penalizes squares of movement to enter it. If a creature starts adjacent, you need a minimum of 4 squares of push/pull/slide in order to force someone into it. This is actually a lot harder for players to do successfully than push someone 1 square and they get a saving throw.

 

[KarinsDad]

Nobody has yet mentioned that forced movement requires line of effect.

So, no sliding a foe down a perpendicular corridor.

 

[MadLordOfMilk]

Nobody has yet mentioned that forced movement requires line of effect.

So, no sliding a foe down a perpendicular corridor.

Wait, really? *looks back at push/pull/slide rules*
Dang, didn't even notice that. Thanks!