D&D General Tell me of "PHB" classes of prior eras!

[EzekielRaiden]

My hubris has struck again, and I have kinda-sorta-not-exactly volunteered to do a thing, a new alternative to the now somewhat long-in-the-tooth "Survivor" threads. But my first notion, "PHB classes through the ages," almost immediately met with some reminders that I don't actually know all the options folks once had.

So, I'd like folks to chime in! I may or may not actually use all the stuff folks recommend, but at the very least it will be a knowing and intentional exclusion, not an accidental oopsie.

Three caveats I will note to head some things off at the pass:

• It needs to come from a core book, though I am not going to harp too hard on precision there. Being called a "PHB" is a shoe-in, of course, but other "core"/"base" classes are likely to pass muster.
• I am allowing PF1e stuff because it really is "3.75e" in most ways. I will not be including new stuff only found in PF2e.
• I will be combining certain classes together that are fundamentally the same archetype. E.g. "Thief-Acrobat" will be (explicitly) part of Rogue/Thief, "Magic-User" will be (explicitly) part of Wizard, etc. I will, however, include Illusionist as a separate option, since that was an intentional separation in some editions.

So, ye of fulsome years and storied wisdom, regale me with your classes core!

 

[TwoSix]

So, should we explicitly exclude base classes from non-PHB expansion books, like the Divine Mind or Truenamer from 3.5, or the sha'ir and magician from 2e?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So, should we explicitly exclude base classes from non-PHB expansion books, like the Divine Mind or Truenamer from 3.5, or the sha'ir and magician from 2e?

Yeah. I figure we can have a separate "amazing race" run for the more distant/expansion options. I would say we could theoretically do one for prestige classes but there are way, way, way, WAY too many for that.

 

[jasper]

1E Cavalier . Page 14 of 1E UA. Would not work in most campaign due to the honor code and if your saw your favorite enemy you would charge regardless of outcome. See page 16
In 5E it would start with mounted combat as free feat.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Wait so like “warlock” would include both PHB warlocks, for instance?

My votes for Bard will be difficult to decide if it includes 3.5, 4e, and 5e, bards.

 

[TwoSix]

Let's see...I'll ignore any class that's already in the 5e PHB, on the basis we should all be familiar with those.

3.5 PHB2
Beguiler
Dragon Shaman
Duskblade
Knight

PF APG (Feels like essentially a PHB2)
Alchemist
Cavalier
Inquisitor
Oracle
Summoner
Witch

4e PHB
Warlord

4e PHB2
Avenger
Shaman
Invoker
Warden

4e PHB3
Psion
Battlemind
Ardent
Runepriest
Seeker

 

[Pedantic]

I'm not sure it makes sense to include all the 4e PHB2/3 stuff, but not some of the other classes from non-PHB labeled books before then. 4e had a bit of a philosophical shift in publishing, and simply released a lot more books under the PHB label, and made an effort to fill those books with more classes in a way we didn't see before.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Wait so like “warlock” would include both PHB warlocks, for instance?

My votes for Bard will be difficult to decide if it includes 3.5, 4e, and 5e, bards.

Yep. It's all one concept, just with different implementations across the years.

I'm not sure it makes sense to include all the 4e PHB2/3 stuff, but not some of the other classes from non-PHB labeled books before then. 4e had a bit of a philosophical shift in publishing, and simply released a lot more books under the PHB label, and made an effort to fill those books with more classes in a way we didn't see before.

Excluding those classes present in 5e, there really aren't that many 4e options: Warlord is the only new thing in PHB1; Avenger, Invoker, Shaman, and Warden are the only new ones in PHB2 (and Shaman may get folded into Dragon Shaman, I'll have to think on it); and I definitely won't be including Hybrids in there (no more than I would Dual-Classing or any flavor of multiclassing). PHB3 is, I admit, a bit more of a stretch and I may make an exception by merging two of its classes into others (specifically, Runepriest->Cleric and Seeker->Ranger.)

That's a grand total of 8 classes beyond the 12 5e PHB ones. (Sadly, Artificer wouldn't make the cut either way.)

And yes, even with lumping things together, there will still be many entries. That was expected and understood. Part of the benefit of the "amazing race" method instead of the "survivor" method is that we don't have to grind down every. single. option. until only one remains. We can set a reasonable cutoff point, e.g. five or ten winners or whatever, and then rank the remainder by their placement.

Per the (quite useful) stuff @TwoSix posted above, I'd probably have to keep Knight separate from Fighter if I'm keeping Illusionist separate from Wizard since it follows the same sort of logic. On the bright side, Beguiler is probably best placed by merging with Illusionist (since the archetypes are extremely similar), and Duskblade, Magus, and the non-PHB Swordmage can all get lumped into a single category, which spares some room.

Finally, as noted, I'm being flexible about not strictly requiring the explicit "Player's Handbook" name, e.g. the PF1e Advanced Player's Guide is absolutely a "PHB2" in everything but name.

Edit: There's also, frankly, the fact that 5e stands out against most other editions by actively avoiding the addition of any new "core" classes, or indeed any new classes at all, with Artificer being literally the only other new official class added during any of 5.0. This may or may not change with 5.5e, but I'm comfortable with some editions putting more "contestants" on the board than others. Frankly, the vast majority of these may not even get any votes, because if we have more than like 40 options, a lot of them will never even approach, much less reach, the finish line. And that's okay.

Compared to the likes of 3.5e and PF1e, 4e really doesn't stand out that much.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

If you go with actual PHB, to add to the 5e options, 1e gave you assassin, and 4e gave you warlord, and that's all that isn't in 5e unless you count illusionist.

If you go beyond and include expansions (only 4e really add split it's PHB classes over multiple books, 3e had a "PHB 2" but it was less core than some of its other expansions), you will likely need to carefully decide what counts and what doesn't.

For example, 1e had Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures. OA is essentially a new PHB with a theme and uses an entirely new set of classes.

2e was particularly weird. Less PHB classes than other editions, but it later included some of the old ones as kits. And then much later it reintroduced some of those old classes as classes (I think. I never actually looked at The Complete Barbarian or The Complete Ninja to see what they were actually doing.) They also included the psionicist at some point.

3e had tons of expansions with classes. This included old favorites like their own Oriental Adventures book and a psion, the stand out stand alone of the introduction to the game of the warlock, and then an ever multiplying mix of bloat most of us have never heard of. Some might have been in the PHB 2, but they were way less core than stuff that wasn't.

Pathfinder was somewhere between 3e and 4e in that way.

But basically, and I hate to be the tool saying "your topic shouldn't be done", there are fundamental issues with the premise, because the significance of the PHB label and the body of expansions it was related to changed substantially over the editions to the point that you get an apples to oranges comparison scenario.

I would recommend the divide between 3.0 and 3.5 as the best point of demarcation if you wanted to split it up more easily for comparison purposes, though even that is somewhat messy.

 

[see]

2e was particularly weird. Less PHB classes than other editions, but it later included some of the old ones as kits. And then much later it reintroduced some of those old classes as classes (I think. I never actually looked at The Complete Barbarian or The Complete Ninja to see what they were actually doing.) They also included the psionicist at some point.

There was also using Player's Option: Spells & Magic to add Crusader, Monk, and Shaman classes.