Tell me that D&D 3.0/3.5 isn't really like this

[Akrasia]

Right, cause all those other RPGs are just growing rings around D&D.....

not

You're being unfair here. D&D is the main 'entry game' for people who play RPGs. The fact that the current version of D&D discourages new players means that they will never even hear about, let alone try, other RPGs.

To point out that D&D is the largest RPG around is not incompatible with the fact that it may be discouraging new players.

 

[Jim Hague]

You're being unfair here. D&D is the main 'entry game' for people who play RPGs. The fact that the current version of D&D discourages new players means that they will never even hear about, let alone try, other RPGs.

To point out that D&D is the largest RPG around is not incompatible with the fact that it may be discouraging new players.

It's not an incompatible opinion, you mean. I've introduced half a dozen people to RPGs since 3.0 came out, and 3.0 was the system that brought me back into D&D in the first place. Having a coherent rulesset instead of the hideous mishmash rules of 1st and 2nd edition went (and continues to go) a long way towards getting people interested in the game.

That said, I think a lot of the problems people report rise from the same source as complaints about systems like GURPS - adding rules/classes/feats/etc. without consideration for campaign and character balance. And like GURPS, the solution is simple: exhibit campaign control.

EDIT: As further proof contrary to D&D discouraging people from entering the hobby, look at games like Mutants and Masterminds, Castles and Crusades and the Mongoose Publishing d20 variants. If D&D ran so many people off, instead of simply being the favorite whipping boy for people who've got a burr on about the system, none of these games would have been possible.

 

[BryonD]

You're being unfair here. D&D is the main 'entry game' for people who play RPGs. The fact that the current version of D&D discourages new players means that they will never even hear about, let alone try, other RPGs.

To point out that D&D is the largest RPG around is not incompatible with the fact that it may be discouraging new players.

I'm the one being unfair? That's a joke, right?

I didn't point out that it is the largest.
I pointed out that it is growing more than any other.

If you're going to claim that minis limit growth of D&D players you may as well go on to claim that Bono's haircut limits the sales of U2 albums.
You can argue with success, but you look silly when you do it.

Quite simply, your personal preference is at odds with the market.
Stating what you prefer is one thing.
But trying to overwrite the overall market reality with your limited experience is just an exercise in denial.

 

[Desdichado]

It's not an incompatible opinion, you mean. I've introduced half a dozen people to RPGs since 3.0 came out, and 3.0 was the system that brought me back into D&D in the first place. Having a coherent rulesset instead of the hideous mishmash rules of 1st and 2nd edition went (and continues to go) a long way towards getting people interested in the game.

Quoted for truth. And because it's completely relevant to me as well. And heck, I was playing totally rules-lite games like The Window^TM before I came back to D&D. I was a pretty stereotypical D&D-hatin' rpg.net-hangin' latte set gamer.

The solution to playing D&D3e+ and not getting bogged down in the rules is twofold, in my experience. 1) If you want to use a rules subset that the rest of us may not be familiar with (grappling, turning undead, any given spell, etc.) as a player, then you are responsible for knowing how it works before your turn comes up, and 2) if someone attempts something that isn't obviously already covered by the rules, then the GM makes an immediate ruling (usually some kind of skill check) which everyone accepts and then we keep playing.

Because me (and my group) already play this way anyway, playing 3e+ has never really been as you describe for us. And all the options of 3e+ become a bonus rather than something that bogs us down; it's great for options when you want them, but it doesn't add needless complexity. Simply because we don't let it do so.

 

[Crothian]

You're being unfair here. D&D is the main 'entry game' for people who play RPGs. The fact that the current version of D&D discourages new players means that they will never even hear about, let alone try, other RPGs.

The rules really are not that complex. I've taught a nine year old to play and adults. I seems to me that some people are just to lazy to learn the rules and then they complain the rules are to complex.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

That is so WEIRD!!!! Why just the other night I was playing oD&D ... or maybe it was Vampire ... or FUDGE ... anyway ...



1. A player wants to do something out of the ordinary. I groan because I know where this is heading.
2. The DM stops the game to a halt and spends 15 min or more trying to figure out what happens on the fly that would make sense. I start watching the clock.
3. Meanwhile, player's also start talking about what THEY think should happen and they don't agree with the DM. It reminds me of a war game mentality.
4. No one can agree on what happens. I think, "surely the DM will just come up with a quick ruling so we can return to playing" - but this optimism is sorely misplaced.
5. Because DM fiat in this game is mandatory, both sides attempt to argue which hypothetical decision comes closest like some bastardized appeals court hearing. I amuse myself by pretending I'm watching Law & Order.
6. After an hour or more, there is still no consesus and I'm so bored I'd rather be at work.
7. Finally, the DM is forced to hand-wave the incident temporarily, but will spend the next week on message boards trying to figure out how we should have handled it, which could retroactively affect reality. I start wondering why I still play this...

Man. What are the odds?

 

[Desdichado]

Man. What are the odds?

You are a bad man, BG. In a good way.

 

[Templeton580]

In my experience, yes. D&D is like that. I think the amount of time cited in the post is exceedingly hyperbolic, but the basic idea is accurate.

"Bad DM" is an incredibly simplistic explanation for the phenomenon. It's not the DM's fault if the group is full of detail-obsessed perfectionists who won't let anything go to "DM's discretion."

Even though my group had a rule against looking up rules during play, it still happened, and much more often than I would have liked. D&D has a "unified ruleset" that defines nearly every action you can take; thus, nearly every action you take precipitates a dip into the rulebook.

But now we have a rule against playing bloated, overblown, outmoded game systems. If it has more than one core rulebook, forget it. So D&D went right out the window in favor of Savage Worlds, and occasionally d20 Modern.

 

[JoeGKushner]

But now we have a rule against playing bloated, overblown, outmoded game systems. If it has more than one core rulebook, forget it. So D&D went right out the window in favor of Savage Worlds, and occasionally d20 Modern.

So Hero isn't bloated? Man, I love it, but putting some type of restriction on number of core books is not the way to go as Hero is a perfect example of a book that could've been chopped up into at least two books.

And if you want monsters, d20 Modern isn't quite so stand alone.... and Savage Worlds is a bit like D&D in that it's evolving quickly as it's already on it's second edition no?

 

[Jim Hague]

In my experience, yes. D&D is like that. I think the amount of time cited in the post is exceedingly hyperbolic, but the basic idea is accurate.

"Bad DM" is an incredibly simplistic explanation for the phenomenon. It's not the DM's fault if the group is full of detail-obsessed perfectionists who won't let anything go to "DM's discretion."

Even though my group had a rule against looking up rules during play, it still happened, and much more often than I would have liked. D&D has a "unified ruleset" that defines nearly every action you can take; thus, nearly every action you take precipitates a dip into the rulebook.

But now we have a rule against playing bloated, overblown, outmoded game systems. If it has more than one core rulebook, forget it. So D&D went right out the window in favor of Savage Worlds, and occasionally d20 Modern.

D20 Modern is D&D with a few tweaks. Your proof doesn't hold up under scrutiny. And again, this is a matter of:

a)Campaign Control
b)Know Thy Rules

If D&D's not your thing, that's fine...but don't blame the tool for problems that you've said lie with a group.