Tell me that D&D 3.0/3.5 isn't really like this

[TGryph]

Just a thought. Whenever I (as GM) tell somebody "Sorry, you can't do that", invariably their response is "why?" THEN you gotta find the rule to explain it to them. Is this the problem with rules-heavy games like 3.5E? Maybe time would be better spent for the GM to figure out how something CAN be done.

TGryph

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

New players only have to worry about the PHB. And they don't need to know it all, only the class, feats, skills, equipment, they have plus the idea that one rolls a d20 and adds a number to it.

Heck, they don't even need to know anything but what their character can do.

The bad part is when people don't know what their characters can do.

Brad

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Almost a non sequitor, but consider: you're talking about using the wrong tool for the job at hand. If you don't succeed at cutting those boards with a hammer, do you blame the hammer, or one's foolishness in picking the wrong tool for the job? If one knows one likes more rules-light games, and picks up a game that has three substantial books as its core, blaming the game because one's gaming experience isn't much fun seems wrong-headed to me. The point being: pick a game to play that suits what you like. In this case, one can easily pick up one of the core books, riffle through it, and say: "damn, that's a lot of rules." If this reaction is negative, then one can put the book down and look for a game that is less imposing.

Yeah, I know, I was just making a joke. I just have a weird sense of humor, I suppose.

 

[tetsujin28]

Just a thought. Whenever I (as GM) tell somebody "Sorry, you can't do that", invariably their response is "why?" THEN you gotta find the rule to explain it to them.

I tend to just say, "Cause it's stupid, that's why". Their usual response is "Oh."

 

[tetsujin28]

Crothian is on a TRUTH roll!!!!!!

Heck, before I ever crack a book I ALWAYS say "Roll D20". 75% of the time the question becomes moot right there.

It is, after all, a d20 system I still can't believe how often this comes up! When you've been told, literally, that the answer to "What do I roll?" is "A d20, unless I say otherwise", why the heck do you ask, "What do I roll?"

 

[TheGM]

Just a thought. Whenever I (as GM) tell somebody "Sorry, you can't do that", invariably their response is "why?" THEN you gotta find the rule to explain it to them. Is this the problem with rules-heavy games like 3.5E? Maybe time would be better spent for the GM to figure out how something CAN be done.

TGryph

This is the opposite of the problem we run into in rules-heavy games. I find that even my very best role-players (and I've got some damn good ones) turn into idiots in games like 3.5 - "I don't have that skill" syndrome strikes, and the player that will attempt to vault over the wall, land on the guard, and stick the guy next to him in one mighty attack, even knowing the odds of success, suddenly does nothing.

I've tried, and we still play some rules heavy games (3.5 and HackMaster), but I'm drifting away from them and moving more and more to C&C. It's 3.0 without skills and feats, exactly what my group wants/needs.

And the rules lawyers have less to pick at - a bonus for any large group.

 

[Akrasia]

Many? I can agree that some do, but many implies more then half and we really do not have that data....

That's a rather novel definition of 'many'. :\

 

[Akrasia]

...
But others have taken a look and basically told me, if not in so many words, that it is more complicated than they want to deal with....

Right -- this was the point that the poster to whom you initially replied was making. And it was (and is) my point. Thanks for catching up.

Earlier versions of D&D had an easy way to get into the game -- the Basic (and Expert) sets. Those were simple, and complete games -- and they sold in the millions (far better than 3e has).

...
But that has never once happened in any association with minis...

Your focus on minis has been completely beside the point.

 

[delericho]

Obi-Wan has a feat created by George Lucas called "Great Limb Cleave"...

Hmm.

I don't really care how the limb-chopping moment in EpIII can be represented using the d20 Star Wars rules. What I find amusing is that the "Jedi Counselling" article, which attempts to show how to do it using the existing rules, fails to apply those rules correctly.

 

[delericho]

New players only have to worry about the PHB. And they don't need to know it all, only the class, feats, skills, equipment, they have plus the idea that one rolls a d20 and adds a number to it.

That's only true if a new player is joining an existing group. However, if a teenager with no other connection to the gamer community thinks he might like to give it a go, he is going to have to worry about the whole of the PHB - he's going to have to learn the rules from that. Furthermore, someone in the group he assembles is going to have to deal with the DMG and the MM, or at least parts of these books. And that's a lot of rules to assimilate, which must be pretty intimidating.

I wonder how many potential gamers are lost as a result of that intimidation factor. I'm sure there must be at least some.