Tell Me What You Think of The Alienist

[Roland Delacroix]

The first level abilities are kick-ass, after that it goes downhill quickly.

 

[Pax]

Re: Re: Re: Tell Me What You Think of The Alienist

Summoned creatures take a while to become powerful. That much is a given. But the psuedonatural template stacked with already decent monsters at mid- to high-levels are quite impressive.

But using Summon Monster, even the 9th one, in an Epic game ... is basically producing little better than speedbumps.

At Epic Levels, I have never played an Alienist. But I would assume that a researched Epic Spell could summon up a monster using the Epic-Level Psuedonatural template... and that would certainly be a respectable monster.

I'm sure it would. But, you don't have to be an Alienist to do so.

Just the standard summoning spells at epic levels would be brutally powerful -- Gate, Greater Planar Binding, and the other major summoning spells would still have just as much impact as the caster gained in levels. Gate, especially, would become dramatically more powerful as the caster continued to gain HD.

Except Gate, Planar Binding, etc, don't benefit at all form the Alienist's ability. ONLY Summon Monster spells (which I dislike, but hey, them's the breaks ...).

Summoning is all about hiding behind powerful monsters. At epic levels, when the monsters ascend into the realms of ridiculousness, it only makes sense to keep as far from them as possible. Most epic level spells would make just as much sense for the Alienist as for anyone else.

I agree that -summoning- can work. But the -Alienist- wouldn't give you any added benefits, or use in an Epic environment, past about 22d or 23d level IMO -- because the Alienists' primary benefit,gettign the Pseudonatural Template on monsters summoned with a Summon Monster spell, rapidly fades into uselessness. Rather like Sneak Attack is pointless in a crypt full of vampires. 8)

If they (WotC) come up with an EPIC Alienist progression, with some sort of balanced way to gain the ability to apply the Epic Pseudonatural template to their summoned creatures ... sure, fine, it might become viable (Even a Summon Monster IV spell, with Epic Pseudonatural template applied, could be hard for a CR25-ish enemy to ignore ...).

But as-is, the Alienist is focussed almost EXCLUSIVELY on pre-Epic levels, IMO.

 

[wolff96]

Pax:

Looking over your arguements, I have to concede that you do have a point.

Typically, I look at Psuedonaturals as being "reserved" for alienists -- you couldn't make an Epic Summoning spell to get one unless you were an alienist (or had studied a deceased Psuedonatural creature). But that's just a personal houserule.

There is ONE advantage you've forgotten, though... A tenth level alienist is an outsider. That opens up a LOT of possibilities with Polymorph Self/Other. (Okay, it's a small perk, but it's still a perk.)

--------------------

Of course, my favorite thing about the Alienist is the flavor... I just hate to see a class I like labelled "useless". Kind of like Crothian and his beloved Oozemasters.

 

[Pax]

There are several prestige classes that turn you into an Outsider. Elemental Savant being among them (and one of my favorites, too 8).

The thing is, to make the Alienist work, you have to be able to infer a whole fairly-graduated series of steps between the pre-Epic Pseudonatural, and full-blown-epic Pseudonatural templates, and then grant access to them as you progress.

You then have to remove the IMO silly restriction on "opnly Summon Monster" for what gets the Template. It should be required for ANY summoned, called, or otherwise magically brought to you creature. Period. 8)

 

[gfunk]

How effective are pseudonatural elementals?

They are bad-ass Mofos.

Esp. the paraelementals. Case in point,

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33249&pagenumber=1

 

[Jalkain]

They are bad-ass Mofos.

Esp. the paraelementals. Case in point,

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33249&pagenumber=1

One point - although the PrC description clearly states that any summoned creature assumes the pseudonatural template, do most of you think that reasonable? Is it more appropriate to restrict it to creatures which would normally have the celestial or fiendish template?

Does it really make sense to have a pseudonatural succubus, for example? Is it really a succubus, or just a alien creature which can take its form? Since you are keeping all the base abilities of the succubus, we must assume that it is one which has been 'corrupted' into an alien form. Does a pseudonatural succubus really make any more sense than, say, a celestial succubus?

And might some of the creatures become overpowered if the benefits of the template are added to existing abilities such as damage reduction and energy immunities? Not a issue when replacing the fiendish template for a giant viper, but when used on demons and devils...

I'd be interested to hear people's thoughts.

 

[Kraedin]

Is it really a succubus, or just a alien creature which can take its form?

It's an alien creature which assumes the form of a succubus when taken outside the Far Realm, not a "corrupted" succubus.

 

[gfunk]

One point - although the PrC description clearly states that any summoned creature assumes the pseudonatural template, do most of you think that reasonable? Is it more appropriate to restrict it to creatures which would normally have the celestial or fiendish template?

A good point and one my group considered when I first took a level of Alienist. If you'll notice in the descriptive text of the Summon Alien ability, the text uses a Rast as an example of a summoned creature with the pseudonatural template. Since a Rast is neither fiendish nor celestial, I think it is relatively clear that all summoned creatures acquire the template.

BTW, 1d3 Pseudonatural Noble Salamanders (SMVIII) absolutely rock the house!! True Strike with a tail slap for auto-grappling, 10/+3 DR and SR 25 = critters that can bring the house down even at high levels.

<added>

Sorry, when I re-read your post I see you were asking if adding said template was a good idea balance and role-playing wise. Balance wise it's okay, I think. Definitely makes Oustiders stronger but not to an unbalanced level. True Strike can be quite potent when used with a special melee ability (e.g. Improved Grab) and SR is always nice but I think considering that SM spells are not THAT powerful anyway . . .

Role-playing wise it is a good idea as well, IMO. As the previous poster said, these are all creatures from the Far Realms simply taking the form of the demons and devils we know and love.

 

[Jalkain]

Role-playing wise it is a good idea as well, IMO. As the previous poster said, these are all creatures from the Far Realms simply taking the form of the demons and devils we know and love.

Doesn't seem to tie in with the fact you are applying a template to a base creature. Still, that may be what the designers had in mind

Incidently, while looking through your excellent story hour, I notice you often describe the monsters as if they were normal summonings. The creature described in the following quote does not appear to hail from the Far Realms, for example.

From the Olympian Glades of Arborea, she called forth a creature which looked like an elf except for its bright red eyes and flaming red hair

 

[gfunk]

Incidently, while looking through your excellent story hour, I notice you often describe the monsters as if they were normal summonings. The creature described in the following quote does not appear to hail from the Far Realms, for example.

Good point. In terms of writing a Story Hour, I only bring up the Far Realms when it is relevant to the plot. For instance, in the beginning of the SH I mention (in detail) a pseudonatural Eryines that I summoned.

However, in most other cases I describe the original "base" creature because saying pseduonatural does not add too much to the equation.

Thanks for the compliment.