Tell me why Druids are the most powerful class

[Pielorinho]

I think an Animal Growthed Druid plus Companion could take on 5 Dire Bears comfortably enough. They damn well better be able to! He is employing two major class abilities (wildshape, companion) and one of his higher level spell slots to get the job done.

While that's true, I don't think that any of the following classes could do the same:
-Barbarian
-Bard (duh)
-Fighter
-Monk
-Paladin
-Ranger
-Rogue

A cleric, sorcerer, or wizard could probably do so, simply by virtue of having spells enabling them to get out of range of the bears, and by virtue of having ranged attack spells. Any of the other classes would pretty much be done for as soon as they failed a grapple check.

I'm a little rusty on my spells, but I can't think of any other spell of equivalent or lesser that provides unlimited DR, let alone unlimited DR, extra hit-points, extra armor, and extra strength, let alone provides all those benefits to multiple targets. I just think providing all these benefits to a PC is too good.

Daniel

Edit: I just realized that your original example, 12 dire bears, is at least an EL 13, and probably more an EL 14, encounter.
1 DB=EL7
2=EL9
4=EL11
8=EL13
12=more

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Wildshape... polymorph... is a "Form change, or type change"

Animal Growth is a "size change".

They are different types of bonuses.

Yes, the spells stack, the size differences do not. As is stated under almost every spell that increases size:
“Multiple magic effects that increase size do not stack.”

Wildshape is a magical effect (su) that increases size, by making your size category larger than it already is. So is Animal Growth, therefore, they do not stack. It's right there in the book.

Here is a quote from the Living Greyhawk article which talks about it, and I agree with:

Animal growth: Increases the size category of the animal by one. The spell also enlarges the equipment of the animal. All of the effects of this spell are tied to the size change except for the DR 10/magic and the +4 resistance bonus. A druid wild shaped into an animal can benefit from this spell only if the animal form it assumed via wild shape is the same size as (or smaller than) her normal form; otherwise the rule against stacking multiple magic effects that increase size applies.

 

[Terath Ninir]

After reading all the arguments in here, I am just as convinced as I came in that the "druids are uber" arguments are all hot air. It looks like a very high percentage of the people who say this are allowing a wildshaped druid to use all their items, when I'd say only a very few can be used. Helmets/headbands? Not on most animals! Amulets? Sure, but you might as well hang out a sign that says "I'm either a wildshaped druid or a familiar!". Rings, sure, what the heck. Bracers, maybe, if you're feeling generous. Gloves, no, belts, no, boots, no. No cloaks, no vestments, no armour unless it's wild or beastform (beastshape?). All in all, a pretty hefty cut in power for your average powergamed character; you're losing most of the best equipment slots.

Most importantly, though, for most of the uberbuilds, is that you have a character that does NOT act like a druid. Your ultimate combatant that goes plowing through the local dungeon is hardly a defender of nature...

 

[Pielorinho]

Most importantly, though, for most of the uberbuilds, is that you have a character that does NOT act like a druid. Your ultimate combatant that goes plowing through the local dungeon is hardly a defender of nature...

I agree with you in general, but again, I'm not sure this is always true. If the dungeon houses a significant threat to nature, then it'd be a foolish druid indeed who placed her personal preference for leaves & berries above the actual wellbeing of the forest.

Daniel

 

[shilsen]

Most importantly, though, for most of the uberbuilds, is that you have a character that does NOT act like a druid. Your ultimate combatant that goes plowing through the local dungeon is hardly a defender of nature...

That's just a druid embodying the "red in tooth and claw" aspect of nature. Or, as Terry Pratchett put it, there's a reason people say that nature is a mother...

 

[JIMBOTHEBLACK]

I always thought a druid functioned a lot like ranger except with a huge advantage, the ability to shapechange into a bear sort of eliminates the need to hide in the grass.

 

[brehobit]

My 2 cents.

In a game where you can "order" a magic items (which I've seen a fair amount) a Druid can do very very gross things.

+2 wild dragon-hide full-plate is around 30,000 as I recall. This gives our dire bear druid an extra +10 AC. In my experiance this is scary. And by 12th level it is very affordable.
Add in natural spell and the druid is at full power as a bear.

I don't think druids are "broken" but I do think they are one of the two most powerful classes.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

While that's true, I don't think that any of the following classes could do the same:

Buffed? Many high AC builds would do fine. I have seen a slightly buffed 8th level Fighter single-handedly destroy one Dire Bear without breaking a sweat. I think it would be doable for the 12th level Fighter.

Edit: I just realized that your original example, 12 dire bears, is at least an EL 13, and probably more an EL 14, encounter.

Doh!



It is still pretty ugly at a more modest EL appropriate 6 Dire Bears. 2 bears could easily kill an unbuffed Druid in 2 rounds. (4 does so in less than 1.)

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In a game where you can "order" a magic items (which I've seen a fair amount) a Druid can do very very gross things.

+2 wild dragon-hide full-plate is around 30,000 as I recall. This gives our dire bear druid an extra +10 AC. In my experiance this is scary. And by 12th level it is very affordable.
Add in natural spell and the druid is at full power as a bear.

Putting aside Armor Proficiencies issues with your example, I think there is a legitimate problem here regarding magic items and wildshaping. The rules do not provide adequate guidance. A DM who is too lenient opens up some very big loopholes for powergaming. A DM who is too strict turns the wildshape into a furry suicide suit.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Putting aside Armor Proficiencies issues with your example, I think there is a legitimate problem here regarding magic items and wildshaping. The rules do not provide adequate guidance. A DM who is too lenient opens up some very big loopholes for powergaming. A DM who is too strict turns the wildshape into a furry suicide suit.

The heavy armor proficiency costs a feat. It's worth it in this case. I think the real problem is the ability to buy magic items.

Over on the dragon thread, people are talking about how easily a dragon can protect its lair if there's a magic shop nearby where it can buy scrolls of spells it couldn't cast. On this thread, we see how powerful the druid is if there's a magic shop handy. Magic shops are a horrible idea. Let the characters succeed on their own abilities, the items they've won, and the items they've made. I know it's illogical given the number of items the PCs find, and various solutions have been proposed (e.g. inherent powers rather than items, as in Midnight). But magic shops have got to go.