Tell me why Druids are the most powerful class

[DevoutlyApathetic]

....turns the wildshape into a furry suicide suit.

You have forever engraved that upon my mind now.

Let the characters succeed on their own abilities, random luck or DM fiat, and the items they've made.

I cleared up your language there.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I cleared up your language there.

Yeah, yeah. From the character's point of view, it is random chance, Fate, Destiny, or the Will of the Gods.
From the player's point of view, it is the DM giving him items that will not disrupt his game balance, as has been the DM's perogative since time began.

 

[iwatt]

Over on the dragon thread, people are talking about how easily a dragon can protect its lair if there's a magic shop nearby where it can buy scrolls of spells it couldn't cast. On this thread, we see how powerful the druid is if there's a magic shop handy. Magic shops are a horrible idea. Let the characters succeed on their own abilities, the items they've won, and the items they've made. I know it's illogical given the number of items the PCs find, and various solutions have been proposed (e.g. inherent powers rather than items, as in Midnight). But magic shops have got to go.

Yup, magic shops in which you can tarde in the "outdated" gear are a problem.

Also, part of the problem are character builds which start at high level. A lot of them involve throwaway feats that are just boring to have until you reach 8th-9th Level when you can finally start getting into the PCs and getting cool synergies between the special abilities and feats. But it isn't that much fun when you got to wlak through all those levels with your unsexy feats like toughness, endurance, skill focus(basket-weaving) etc..

For example, when I first statred playing 3E, I had a Cleric. The thing is, I didn't look at the feat combo (well not to much ) that would make him uber-powerful in 8 more levels. I needed to survive, and I wanted to have some fun doing it. So I took a lot of subpar feats and multiclass. That character is a lot of fun. But I statred him from Level 1.

Currently I'm playing a Dwarf Paladin aiming for the Hammer of Moradin (I know, I know ). Also from Level 1. All the other characters are having a blast, and I'm doggedly persevering with the only thought been: "Just wait till I reach Level 13 and start laying the smack down!!" It's an excercise in patience.

Basically what I mean is that it is easy to prove that characters are broken if you allow two things:

1) Equipment Customization to Current level wealth. DMs who allow this without setting any limitation like single item caps, or even plausabilty of items deserve to ahve a 7th level war cleric or Druid (who thanx too spell buffs have an even easier time of choosing overpowered equipment) tearing through Frost Giant Jarls.

2) The magic shop. It is a staple of DnD that you can usually find someone that can make most scrolls and potions. Also many of the Wands were obtainable. But it used to be that you couldn't just order up the "+3 wild uber-wood full plate of maximum Doom" for your druid and actually find this item in stock. Or even find someone who could create it "and" was willing too. Seems like a patricularly monty-haul CRPG when you start allowing this.

 

[Felix]

I am just as convinced as I came in that the "druids are uber" arguments are all hot air.

The argument is not that Druids are Uber, so if you're looking for it, of course you're going to find hot air: because those arguments arn't bloody well being made.

In any given situation, the Druid will be doing more than holding their own, but they won't be owning the show. The point is that they will be doing that in every single situation. They will not "pwm3z u!!!1!!", but they will consistently perform at the level of effectiveness of the guy who is supposed to be the best at doing whatever it is that needs doing.

So put away the anti-smackdown rhetoric, because smackdown builds arn't being suggested.

---All that jazz about 12 Dire Bears---

As much as a Druid can tangle it up with people as a Wildshaped Dire Bear, he is also a full caster. And to me that means that when he's alone and confronted with 12 Dire Bears, he gets himself up in a tree, casts Calm Animals, and Wild Empathys them to friendly.

It gets more complicated when his buddies are killing off the other bears, but not much more. He can remove some from the fight without killing them... which is I think what a Druid would find as the best solution (not killing nature).

But yeah, just because the Druid can turn into 2000lbs of bear doesn't mean he always should.

 

[DevoutlyApathetic]

Yeah, yeah. From the character's point of view, it is random chance, Fate, Destiny, or the Will of the Gods.
From the player's point of view, it is the DM giving him items that will not disrupt his game balance, as has been the DM's perogative since time began.

So were THAC0, static saves, super-multiclassing, ridiculous dual classing, and the rewarding of guys who rolled an 18 with even more bonus's to hit; all these are just as much staples as the overbearing DM who must be able to 'keep the characters in line'. Things having been done before is a bad answer as to why you should keep doing it.

More to the point, in a world where a reliable magic exists and high level NPC's run around the place some sort of magic economy is practically demanded to exist if we want things to be internally consistant.

The only real issue to me is how much time you want to spend playing "Merchant: the Reckoning" instead of the problem solving/dungeon delving/adventuring bit.

If you think the unfettered access is the issue I suggest you look seriously at the items being bought with regards to just how balanced they are.

Edit: Oh and on topic? Druids don't really need the uber armor. I'm not a huge fan of the melee druid, as in my experiance he rapidly becomes sub-par to a competent fighter at the end of mid levels. I think druids should focus on being druids and not waste feats being a blender for a few levels. When the pit fiends show up you'll regret walking up and beating on them.

 

[Thanee]

Against those dire bears, the druid can always wildshape into an owl, fly up and rain down lightning and fire on them.

Or just soothe them with Wild Empathy, comfortably outside of claw's reach.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Pielorinho]

Buffed? Many high AC builds would do fine. I have seen a slightly buffed 8th level Fighter single-handedly destroy one Dire Bear without breaking a sweat. I think it would be doable for the 12th level Fighter.

Thing is, buffing isn't part of a fighter's repertoire: it's part of a druid's. It seems to me that you're saying a high-AC fighter build could do fine vs. four dire bears, with the help of a druid or cleric. And that's a whole nother kettle of fish.

It is still pretty ugly at a more modest EL appropriate 6 Dire Bears. 2 bears could easily kill an unbuffed Druid in 2 rounds. (4 does so in less than 1.)

Sure, if the druid uses only one ability--wildshaping--without calling on an animal companion, any equipment, or any spells, and chooses a suboptimal form to wildshape into.

I think if you want to demonstrate that druids aren't as strong as folks think they are, you need an example in which a druid, acting in the most tactically sound fashion possible, doesn't perform as well as other character classes. This example still depends on limiting the druid's actions, which only demonstrates that a druid played in a tactically unsound fashion isn't as strong as another character played in a tactically sound fashion.

Daniel

 

[two]

no weaknesses

It's simply this: no weaknesses. As another poster stated already.

The druid has good hit points, good BAB, good saves, good spellcasting, good melee capability (wildshape), good summoning capability, good ranged attack capability (usually via attack spells), good buffing spells, good special abilities, good scouting/infiltration abilities, good skills, good movement capabilities (wildshape), etc. etc.

Compare this list with that associated with the Fighter:

Excellent BAB, Excellent Saves, Excellent Weapons & Armor, Excellent Hit Points. Everything else is poor.

or with a Rogue:

Excellent skills, good scouting/hiding/social abilities, excellent special attack (sneak attack). Good BAB, good special abilities (evasion). Evertyhing else is poor.

The Druid just has a whole pile of things he is good at. And a few he is unmatached at: fighting in the wilderness, shapechanging, dealing with plants/animals.

The one glaring weakness is a a druid's comparatively "low" AC when wildshapred; this can be fixed with a monk's belt/wilding clasp/wild armor/etc. It is probably the Druid's #1 focus for wonderous items, and as such the problem can be surmounted.

The low AC of summoned monsters isn't as big a deal as it might be; often a druid summons the critters right next to the bad guys; the critters grapple for their attacks, and often end up in a grapple. From that point on, AC's kinda moot. If the animals aren't grapplers, then it's not so good.

 

[smetzger]

Support Spells: The Druid has some great buffs, and while Summon Nature's Ally doesn't have the punch that Summon Monster does, he can do it at a whim.

Say what..., the Summon Natures Ally Spells completely rule the Summon Monster List. The Elementals on the Nature's Ally list are much more effective at combat than things on the Summmon Monster list.

 

[Nail]

It's simply this: no weaknesses.

Again, as a DM of a druid for the last two years: I'd say this is close to true. No glaring weaknesses (other than Ref save, direct damage spells, and Dispel Magic).

The one glaring weakness is a a druid's comparatively "low" AC when wildshapred; this can be fixed with a monk's belt/wilding clasp/wild armor/etc.

Well...I'm not sure I would go so far as to say "fixed". "Made not as sucky" perhaps.

The low AC of summoned monsters isn't as big a deal as it might be; often a druid summons the critters right next to the bad guys; the critters grapple for their attacks, and often end up in a grapple.

True, if the Summoned animal's attack hits. At higher levels, that's a big issue. My Clr 14 summoner is currently having "issues" with that.