Tell me why Druids are the most powerful class

[DSC-EricPrice]

Yes, I think this is the fourth or fifth mention of it. I suppose it does nothing to assuage you to remind you that several other people have posted that the do stack because Wildshape alters form, not size.

Quite the contrary I thought my post made it clear that we though shapeshifting and / or wildshaping into a form the same size as your original form and then becoming the subject of a animal growth would be perfectly ok. What we objected to was wildshaping into a different SIZED animal (which is both a form change AND a size change), such as my favorite the gargantuan dire elephant, and THEN trying to apply the effects of the animal growth spell. I'm perfectly willing to admit we erred in deciding so, but I would prefer if there was an errata or some other rules clarification that indicated so. G-d knows it wouldnt be the first time I made a mistake (obviously, I looked right past the celestial charger) but I still maintain I'd kill my DM if he summoned me a grig as part of a 9th level spell. Given the DC is 12 IIRC I doubt anything that my 17th+ level druid is fighting is going to have a difficult time making the save... Honestly though even if WotC came out and said they intended for it to be used this way we'd house rule it for exactly the reasons that have come up on this thread. It pushes the envelope too far.

Id also be curious what makes you think a natural animal would not die? Not being celestial or fiendish and thus not having a planar background, i can think of no reason that an ordinary animal summoned with the spell wouldnt die when killed.

As for 9th level SNA - The pixie on the other hand might be ok with his sleep arrows, assuming he can hit what im fighting and they have low will saves, but in the end, in all the times Ive played druids, its never worked out in my advantage to use SNA as a 9th level spell. YMMV

 

[RigaMortus]

Id also be curious what makes you think a natural animal would not die? Not being celestial or fiendish and thus not having a planar background, i can think of no reason that an ordinary animal summoned with the spell wouldnt die when killed.

Maybe because that is what it says in the PHB?

I am not going to type it out for you, but I will give you some hints...

3.5 PHB
Page 173
Under Summoning

 

[HeavyG]

Not only when wildshaped, the druid has a poor AC in druid form as well. A druid may only wear hide, leather, or padded armor, he is prohibitted from wearing metal armor.

With the ton of new materials found in all the supplements, I'm sure even druids can find good non-metallic armor choice, such as breastplates and possibly even chain shirts. As has been mentioned, they can even wear Full plate, if they can only get the armor proficiency.

 

[satori01]

Summoned Monsters do not actually die when killed during a summoning. As flavor I have ruled that when summoned via a spell, the creature summoned is actually asleep and dreams the encounter. Thus when you see that dire bear asleep and leg twitching and "chasing rabbits", it might actually be summoned and fighting.

Having DM'd a Druid for a year now, the class is not that uber. Wildshape is a very open ended power, that an inventive player can use to good effect. As a DM I find that very intresting. Having a player cast water breath on the party and then wildshape into a baleen whale and swallow the party and swim them across a watery obstacle is cool in my book.

Animal Companions can get slaughtered very quickly and what I find is most druids spend at least a part of their monies making items or buy armor for their Animal Companions as much as themselves.

Wildshape can signifigantly hurt a druid in the AC department. Untill one gets armor with the wild quality, ones AC will routinely drop 5 points or so. Being an animal with 16 AC at 8th level is just not going to cut it, no matter how much damage one might do.

The great balancing factor for Druids, is while Druids are versatile, there is only so much one can do in one round. If an average combat lasts 4-6 rounds and it is going to take you 3 rounds to turn yourself into the ultimate fighting champion, by the time the druid unleashes his bad a$$ self, either the mob will be close to dead, or his companions will and he will have to scrap the idea for the wand of cure X wounds he or she has as auxillary or primary healer.

Awaken will be the bane of any DMs exsitance however. First the druid player will want to awaken their animal companion. Now you have to decide does the companion become a cohort or remain an animal companion or does it become both. Then you have to decide does it get advance in character levels or receive Animal companion abilities or both, ad infinitum ad naeusum.

The druid in my campaign has used the Awaken spell to make a cadre of intelligent trees, shrubs, rats and pidgeons. I play in a centralized gigantic city, and she uses these Awakened friends to act as an information gathering network.

It has proven exceptionaly effective, even with me trying to drive her insane with the Trees and rats unusual requests or mal adjustment to their enlightened state.

All in all a blast, a very fun character to DM for, if you are willing to role with the punches.

 

[Felix]

I still maintain I'd kill my DM if he summoned me a grig as part of a 9th level spell.

The summoner is the one who picks what he summons, not the DM. Unless he's HouseRuled it, in which case, that's his problem, not the class'.

 

[Nail]

Awaken will be the bane of any DMs exsitance however. First the druid player will want to awaken their animal companion. Now you have to decide does the companion become a cohort or remain an animal companion or does it become both. Then you have to decide does it get advance in character levels or receive Animal companion abilities or both, ad infinitum ad naeusum.

Apparently you've not read the spell description. Let me point out a relevant detail:

Awaken

... An awakened animal can’t serve as an animal companion, familiar, or special mount.

No decision necessary. It simply can't be an animal companion. The druid will have to get another one. (Ooopps!)

The druid in my campaign has used the Awaken spell to make a cadre of intelligent trees, shrubs, rats and pidgeons. I play in a centralized gigantic city, and she uses these Awakened friends to act as an information gathering network.

And, I trust, your Druid player has been spending lots of XP....250 XP per animal or plant. Given your list, that's several 1000 XP, depending on what you mean by "cadre".

 

[Nail]

As I said, it's pretty nice to get your summoned monsters/animals to grapple. A lot of them are pretty good at it (some even with improved grapple etc. abilities).

Several of you have made this mistake.... I see it's quite common, especially amongst the "druids are uber" crowd.

You can't use the Improved Grab ability on a melee touch attack. Sorry.

The animal (or monster) actually has to hit with a natural attack that does damage.....then (and only then) can he start a grapple with Improved Grab.

Now, the animal could use an attack to grapple normally (and therefore use a touch attack, against a touch AC), but since it does not have the Improved Grapple feat, that provokes a AoO that can ruin the grapple.

As I said before....as the CRs get higher, it becomes harder and harder for your Summoned Monsters/Nature's Allies to hit.

 

[mikebr99]

For those in the "Animal Growth doesn't stack with wildshape" boat... please site a rule... book and page... anywhere... that states this... or states Animal Growth is a size change.

Please... rather then just posting your thoughts???



Mike

 

[Nail]

The important part there, mikebr99, is how we define "size change".

Does "size change" mean that you get a size bonus to Str, Con, etc? IOW, is it only a size change if you get a bonus of type: size? (rather than type: morale or type: deflection)

Because none of us can argue that a size Large brown bear is of a larger size than a size Medium black bear, right?

Isn't there a FAQ on this? (LG rulings don't intrest me.)

 

[satori01]

Apparently you've not read the spell description. Let me point out a relevant detail:


No decision necessary. It simply can't be an animal companion. The druid will have to get another one. (Ooopps!)

No I have read the description in the spell, 3.0 had no such descriptor and I developed house rules then to deal with it. In general I rule that any awakened hit dice are subtracted from the druids level in regards to Animal Companion abillities. Thus from memory an 8th level druid with a Dire Wolf, will have a -6 to effective druid level for Animal Companion abillities (-4 for advanced animal companion, -2 to for Awaken,). Again going from memory here so exact numbers are probably off but people get the idea. So Far it has worked out allright. Though I must admit I did drive the Druid Crazy when she awoke her brown bear, and the dang thing started back talking her, quite the snarky and cowardly personality, since then she tends to leave her Animal Companions as one of the unwashed animal masses.

Cadre here means 6 creatures or plants Awakened. The player has found the exp expenditure more than worth it. Again I find that this will often be the abillity that will drive DMs nuts, especially if the DM is of a controlling nature.