Tell me why Druids are the most powerful class

[Pielorinho]

Several of you have made this mistake.... I see it's quite common, especially amongst the "druids are uber" crowd.

You can't use the Improved Grab ability on a melee touch attack. Sorry.

The animal (or monster) actually has to hit with a natural attack that does damage.....then (and only then) can he start a grapple with Improved Grab.

...

As I said before....as the CRs get higher, it becomes harder and harder for your Summoned Monsters/Nature's Allies to hit.

I didn't even see that mistake first time through--nice catch! I'd rule that teaching a bear or tiger to grapple in the normal way (with a touch attack) would require at least a trick, and wouldn't be something you could do with a summoned animal.

That said, I've not yet reached a level where an animal companion or summoned creature has trouble hitting. Consider especially that animal growth grants +3 to hit on average (+4 from strength, -1 from size), and that animals such as bears and tigers get multiple attacks, my experience is that they can usually effect a grapple within their first round.

Their main problem is that as soon as they do, there's a big honking target painted on their sides, and they go down pretty quickly (or, worse, get dominated)

Daniel

 

[Nail]

I didn't even see that mistake first time through--nice catch! .....That said, I've not yet reached a level where an animal companion or summoned creature has trouble hitting.

Aaack. Lucky guy. Using Animal Growth on the druid's SNA animals is quite helpful too.

As an aside, in the game in which I play my PC is a Clr 14 now, and specializes in summoning creatures for aid. At levels 6 thru 11 it worked great! I'd summon an Imp. Grab creature on the main main guy, and essentially take him out of combat. Wonderful stuff! Life was good........

Now (EL 12 thru EL 16) the ACs of the BBEGs and minions are high enough that most of my summoned creatures that enter melee are relegated to "Aid Another" actions. Forget getting any chance to use that juicy Improved Grab power -- that AC 33 (or whatever) is just too tough without a few more buffing spells. Sigh. :\

Boy, would it be great if Imp. Grab creatures could use it with a touch attack.......

 

[Nail]

...3.0 had no such descriptor and I developed house rules then to deal with it...

Aah.

Actually, I think (IIRC) there was the same limitation in the 3.0 FAQ or errata. Pretty sure MotW had it in there too. No awakened companions. As you have amply shown, its a good thing it's not allowed. Yay 3.5e!

 

[Pielorinho]

Aaack. Lucky guy.

As an aside, in the game in which I play my PC is a Clr 14 now, and specializes in summoning creatures for aid. At levels 6 thru 11 it worked great! I'd summon an Imp. Grab creature on the main main guy, and essentially take him out of combat. Wonderful stuff! Life was good........

Now (EL 12 thru EL 16) the ACs of the BBEGs and minions are high enough that most of my summoned creatures that enter melee are relegated to "Aid Another" actions. Forget getting any chance to use that juicy Improved Grab power -- that AC 33 (or whatever) is just too tough. Sigh. :\

Just wait till next level when you get a celestial dire bear. Two attacks at +19 means that, without any combat advantages (flanking, prayer, bless, higher ground, etc.), the bear is going to start a grapple attempt against that AC33 bad guy 58% of the time in the first round. Get it flanking, and the chance of initiating a grapple attempt in the first round goes up to 70%.

As it is now, an invisible stalker might be able to help you out (although the piddly +14 to grapple makes it mainly a mage-killer--it's not going to be helping you with fighter types).

Note that while your cleric gets the dire bear at 15th level, a druid may call on a dire bear at 11th level. Sure, it's not celestial and doesn't come with the DR mod factory-installed, but it starts a grapple just as effectively.

At the level where you're summoning 1 dire bear and casting prayer on it, a druid is summoning 1d4+1 dire bears and then casting animal growth on all of them plus her animal companion plus herself. Target those dire bears at our AC33 opponent, and assume they all get flanking, and the chances that every single one of them will miss become negligible (if I'm doing my math right, there's 0.6% chance that three such dire bears will all miss with their claw attacks in a single round).

Yeah, druids can do the summoning thing pretty well.
Daniel

 

[Nail]

......an' let's not even talk about Psions summoning custom-built Astral Constructs....

Good point, P (your math looks fine too). Thanks!

The problem is, even a 58% chance to start the grapple might not be good enough....in comparison to other actions I (Clr 15) could take (like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful!). It's not so good that it's a slam dunk....which is what Ridley's Cohort is trying to point to, I think.

 

[mikebr99]

The important part there, mikebr99, is how we define "size change".

Does "size change" mean that you get a size bonus to Str, Con, etc? IOW, is it only a size change if you get a bonus of type: size? (rather than type: morale or type: deflection)

Because none of us can argue that a size Large brown bear is of a larger size than a size Medium black bear, right?

Isn't there a FAQ on this? (LG rulings don't intrest me.)

Right Nail... that's how I define a size change... and how the spells that change your size do also.

I'm not directing this at you all...

Enlarge person... changes your normal size, and gives "size" bonuses

Righteous Might... changes your normal size, and gives "size" bonuses

Animal Growth... changes your normal size, and gives "size" bonuses


Again... not at you Nail... but everyone's clear on the above? None of these stack, right?


Wildshape (Polymorph)... changes your form (& type), but doesn't change the size, that is normal to the form you just assumed.


Mike

 

[Nail]

Again... not at you Nail... but everyone's clear on the above?

Yup, I'm clear!

So, since Polymorph et al. don't mention a size bonus or increase, then using it to become a size Large creature is not a size increase?

I'm just askin'.

 

[mikebr99]

Yup, I'm clear!

So, since Polymorph et al. don't mention a size bonus or increase, then using it to become a size Large creature is not a size increase?

I'm just askin'.

That's what I'M sayin'...

I'm just using a different body... the size of that body has no relevance.


Mike

 

[Pielorinho]

The problem is, even a 58% chance to start the grapple might not be good enough....in comparison to other actions I (Clr 15) could take (like Righteous Wrath of the Faithful!). It's not so good that it's a slam dunk....which is what Ridley's Cohort is trying to point to, I think.

Right, but again, that shows that summoning isn't an uber tactic for a cleric. The druid using this tactic would have a 99.6% chance of initiating a grapple against the target in question, and at least one of those grapple attempts would almost certainly succeed.

Even so, I think that summoning dire bears isn't the uber tactic for a druid. The uber tactic for a druid is turning into a dire ape and casting animal growth on herself and her animal companion (and maybe some summoned creatures), with a DM who's generous about the rules for equipment melding.

A generous DM will allow armor, headgear, rings, amulets, clothing, and weaponry to survive the wildshaping, and we'll therefore be dealing with a creature with 15' reach (I think), the ability to rend, a respectable armor class, DR10/magic, a jaw-dropping strength, and whatever tchotchkes the druid has, all for the use of one spell. (I'll assume that a druid using this uber tactic has the natural spell feat and goes around in ape-form).

I'd put that druid up against any other melee class of the same level. Heck, I'd even disallow the use of any other druid traits and allow the use of unlimited traits from the other class: let the barbarian rage; let the fighter use all his feats; let the ranger dual-wield and cast her entire regimen of spells. The druid will win the day, I'm guessing.

That's why (among other reasons) I don't think wildshaping should change the creature type.

Daniel

 

[Urbanmech]

Don't dismiss the fact that druids can summon elementals at lower levels than their other spellcasting friends. A Huge Earth Elemental attacks for +20/+20 (due to earth mastery) most of the time and deals 2d10+9/10. This is less than the dire bear, but the elemental is likely to survive longer due to having dr 5/- and elemental traits. Also factor in its much superior feats Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Awesome Blow, and Improved Bullrush and you have a melee machine. Add in Augument Summoning and you are golden. Too bad all summon spells are shut down by protection from alignment spells.