Templates + HD advancement = head explodiation

[hong]

For tonight's game I decided to have some fun with a templated monster.

As the base creature, I used a huge monstrous centipede out of the MM.

I then applied the monstrous beast template from S&S.

I then applied the fiendish template.

Because the centipede is still absolutely wussy, I then advanced it from 4 HD to 12.

At this point, my head explodiated.

What would the resulting monstrosity have in way of BAB, saves, feats, and skill points? Does it retain its vermin traits (immune to mind-affecting effects) even though it's a magical beast? Does the order in which the templates are applied matter?

 

[Theuderic]

Or more over do ANY of these things matter when you are clearly doing something behind your players back you dirty dog.

 

[Piratecat]

I find it's way, way easier to apply the templates last... AFTER advancing the monster in hit dice.

Care to post him? It'd be fun to see!

 

[hong]

Or more over do ANY of these things matter when you are clearly doing something behind your players back you dirty dog.

Hey, I gotta pay my dues to the Rat Bastard DM's Club, ya know.


Here's what I came up with:

Fiendish monstrous beast centipede: CR 9; Huge Magical Beast (spirit); HD 12d8+12 (84 hp); Init +2; AC 16 (touch 10, flat-footed 14); Atk +14 melee (2d6+6 and poison, bite); F/R 10 ft by 30 ft/10 ft; SA Breath weapon, smite good, poison; SQ Blindsight 100 ft, DR 10/+3, cold resistance 20, fire resistance 20, SR 24, vermin traits; AL NE; Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3; Str 18, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 2.

Skills and Feats: Climb +20, Hide +5, Spot +12, Weapon Focus (bite), Power Attack, Cleave.

SA -- Breath weapon (Su): 30-foot cone of sonic energy, every 2d4 rounds; damage 3d6, Reflex half DC 17.

SA -- Poison (Ex): 1d8 temp Str damage initial and secondary; Fort negates DC 17.

SA -- Smite good (Su): 1/day, +12 damage.

Vermin traits: Immune to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects). Darkvision 60 feet.


Basically I started with a 4HD monstrous centipede, then applied the monstrous beast template which turned it from a vermin into a magical beast. I kept the vermin traits, because the example monstrous beast stag beetle does that. This also gave it a breath weapon and the blindsight ability.

Then I applied the fiendish template, giving it a smite and HD-dependent SR, DR and fire and cold resistances.

Then I advanced it 8 HD, which is +8 BAB and 3 extra feats. I didn't bother working out all the skill points, because I knew it'd last about 3 rounds of combat.

 

[Knight Otu]

Let me see... according to my memory:

What would the resulting monstrosity have in way of BAB, saves, feats, and skill points?

Vermin BAB (cleric BAB), vermin saves (good Fortitude), vermin feats (none, usually), vermin skill points (10 - 12 in 3e, propably none in R3E). None of the templates change these calculations.

Does it retain its vermin traits (immune to mind-affecting effects) even though it's a magical beast?

According to SavSpe, no. It will lose the Vermin traits and gain Magical Beast traits (darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision).

Does the order in which the templates are applied matter?

I was inclined to say no, but actually, it might have an impact. The fiendish template does not change the Vermin type (it propably should, but that's not the point), increasing the CR of the centipede, and some of the Monstrous Beast's abilities require a minimum CR to be chosen.

And I agree with Piratecat, advance a creature first, then apply template - prevents some agony.

 

[Theuderic]

Let me see... according to my memory:


, advance a creature first, then apply template - prevents some agony.

Try telling the players that!

 

[kramis]

Advance first

I've done this several times, and you really have to advance it first before adding the template or it doesn't really work so well. I find as long as you advance it first all the CR's and adjustments remain in balance.

This is especially true of the templates like "Fiend" which have a lot of HD dependent abilities. It also matter for calculation saving throws and such for special effects (like poison och gaze attacks).

 

[hong]

Ick, I hate situations where the order of doing things makes a difference to the outcome.

So, were there any errors in my writeup? Anyone else want to chime in?

 

[Destil]

(10 - 12 in 3e, propably none in R3E)

Oohh! I like that, R3E. Calling it 3.5 always grated me the wrong way. Consider it yoinked...


Er... and just so this isn't entirely off-topic... uhm... Look! If you look real carefull you can just barely make out a shadow hydra in the shadows there:

Shadow Hydra (6 headed) Huge Magical Beast; HD 6d10+30 (63 hp); Init +1; Speed 30' (swim 30'); AC 15(-2 size, +1 dex, +6 natural); Atk 6 bites +5 melee (1d10+3); Face/Reach: 20ft by 20ft/10ft; SQ: Scent, Cold Resist 12, Shadow Blend (9/10ths concealment in shadow), Fast Healing 2; Saves: Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +2; Str 17, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 10, Cha 9
Skills and Feats: Listen +6, Move Silently +7, Spot +6; Combat Reflexes (6 AoO / round - 1/head)

Didn't much like the roper in Forge of Fury, so I changed it's lair to an area weakly attuned to the plane of shadow to further my metaplot and threw in this guy. Since hydra are basicly statted out at every hit die it was a simple template add, though.

 

[Knight Otu]

So, were there any errors in my writeup?

As I said previously, it should (at least according to my memory) lose the Vermin traits. Also, the increase in BAB is too high, it should be +6 instead of +8.

I don't think it is supposed to have feats...

I see that you did not include the Size bonus to the Poison DC that Vermin have... might be correct, but I'm not sure about it....


(Heh, I think that's the first time someone really yoinked something from me. )