Grog said:
Well, compare the benefits from the Ogre to the benefits from a 5th level fighter.
4d8 HP vs. 5d10 HP - advantage fighter.
+3 BAB vs. +5 BAB - advantage fighter.
saves - same.
6 skill points vs. 16 skill points - advantage fighter.
1 feat vs. 5 feats - advantage fighter.
First off, slight math error by you -- and by me, prior to this edit (oops): the BAB of an Ogre is +4. The reason teh MM list only a +8 attack, even with enough Strength to get +5 ... is the -1 to hit for being Size Large.
Don't forget the attributes. Let's assume we're comparing a HUMAN fighter-5, to an Ogre with no class levels, using racial-average attributes (IOW, teh human gets 10's and 11's across the board); the Human will have a 12 Strength (11 to start, and +1 at 4th level); the Ogre (a 4HD creature, and thus a 4th level character, with 4 levels of "giant" ...) has a 22 Strength ... the same +1 addition.
OGRE (no class) VS HUMAN FIGHTER (1)
Hit points
The Ogre gets 4d8+8 hp (first HD is always maximum, so this is "really" 3d8+16; the minimum HP are 19, the maximum are 40, and the average is 29.5 ... call it 30).
The Fighter gets 5d10+0 hp (still max on the first, so, 4d10+10 ... minimum 14, maximum 50, average 32hp).
CONCLUSION: miniscule advantage to the fighter -- an advantage that rapidly disappears, and even REVERSES itself, as the Ogre picks up Fighter levels (see below).
Feats
I'm ignoring Attribute requirements for feats, to simplify things. Sue me.
The Ogre is no dummy, he takes Large and In Charge.
The Human isn't stupid either, his six feats ( Char 1, Char 3, Ftr 1, Ftr 2, Ftr 4, Racial) will be: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Power Attack.
CONCLUSION: Clear advantage goes to the fighter, without a doubt.
To-Hit and attacks
First, we'll give each one an identical weapon-and-armor loadout -- a fairly archetypal "longsword and large shield with chainmail" affair. not twinkish, but both benefit/lose equally so it should be -fair-. Nomasterwork or magical bonusses involved at all; armor class should be 18 for the human (10, +5 armor, +2 shield, +1 dodge) ... and for the Ogre, 20 (10, -1 size, -1 Dex, +5 armor, +2 shield, +5 natural).
I'm not factoring in Critical hits, as both have identical weapons, and such events should be fairly infrequent anyway. However, keep in mind the Ogre's somewhat higher net Attack Bonus means the Ogre will confirm those criticals slightly more often.
The Ogre has a BAB of +4, minus one for being Large, and plus 6 for strength of 22, for +9. His Longsword is scaled to himself, and is thus a Large longsword ... the exact equivalent of a Greatsword, but still wielded in one hand. Damage is therefor 2d6+6, including strength. The ogre has Reach of 10'. Damage on a hit averages 13; the Ogre needs to roll only a 9 or better on normal attacks to connect with the Fighter's AC of 18, this is a 60% chance to hit. 60% of 13 is roughly 8hp (7.8 really); the Ogre needs about four rounds to drop the Fighter.
The Fighter has a BAB of +5, +1 for his strength of 12, and +1 for his Weapon Focus for +7. He does 1d8+3 damage per attack, including his strength bonus, for an average damage of 7.5 ... call it 8. The Fighter has only normal 5' reach, and so must either trigger an AoO (at +4AC due to his Mobility feat, conveniently enough), or surrender the first swing to the ogre by stopping 10' away; any AOO will hit the Fighter only on a roll of 12 or better, still 45% of the time, not nice at all. OTOH, the fighter needs to roll a 13 or above -- a 40% chance to hit. 40% of 8 is 3.2; rounding gives us 3/round average; ten rounds to drop the Ogre
CONCLUSION: Clear, undeniable advantage to the ogre. The fighter and two of his FRIENDS would have slightly less than a 50/50 chance of defeating the Ogre ... and the above is WITHOUT taking "large and in charge" into account.
Base saves
The Ogre's base saves are F+4/R+0/W+1
The Fighter's base saves are F+4/R+1/W+1
CONCLUSION: Small advantage to teh fighter.
Skill points
As you observed ... a clear advantage for the Fighter (who would have 21, as a human, to the Ogre's mere 6.
FINAL CONCLUSION:
The Fighter is more well-rounded, and has more options/special tricks to pull (based on Feaths). however, in anoutright throw-down combat ... the ogre takes center stage. PEriod.
Thus, the two are reasonably balanced. Not perfectly, but reasonably.
Now let's look at them five levels later.
Attributes
The Fighter adds +1 to Con, conveniently givign hm a +1 Con modifier.
The Ogre adds +1 to Con as well, going form 15 to 16 ... for a +3 (rather than +2) modifier.
Feats
The Human fighter (10) gets (Ftr 6, Ftr 8, Ftr 10, Ch 6, Ch 9) 5 new feats. He now has (old choices in
italics):
Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Critical, and Improved Initiative.
The Ogre gets (Ftr 1, Ftr 2, Ftr 4, Ch 6, Ch 9) five feats as well. He picks Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialisation, Power Attack, Sunder, and Improved Critical (he hasa +8 BAB). Since the Ogre now has 9HD, I figure attributes and feats are based on a 9th level character ...
CONCLUSION: Obviously the fighter still has an advantage, but it's not so wide a gulf now -- 11 feats to 6, rather than 6 feats to 1.
Hit Points
The Fighter gets a total of 10 (first level) + 9d10 + 10 (constitution), or 9d10+20 hit points. Minimum is 29, maximum is 110, and the bell curve peaks at an average of 69.5 ... call it 70 hit points. The fighter gained 38 hp total, between levels and the Con increase.
The Ogre now has 8 (first HD) + 3d8 (ogre HD) + 5d10 (fighter levels) + 27 (constitution, 9HD). Minimum is 46, maximum is 112, and the bell curve here peaks at an average of 76. As we can see, the advantage has now passed (slightly) to the Ogre, and HP totals will only continue to develop in that fashion in future levels. The Ogre gained 46hp
CONCLUSION: The advantage shifts to the Ogre here, ever so slightly.
To-hit and attacks
This is the biggie. Same gear, no masterwork, no magic. Thus, conveniently, the same AC's -- 18 for the Fighter, and 20 for the Ogre. Also note, I'm still not factoring in criticals ... both should threat just as often, but the ogre should still
confirm those Threats more often.
The Fighter has a BAB of +10/+5 now, which is +12/+7 with strength and weapon focus. In a full attack, he will hit on a roll of 8, then 13. The chances of each of these is 65% and 40%, respectively. Thus during a full attack, he can be expected to deal 105% of his single-swing damage, on average. That damage is still 1d8+3, for an average of 7.5 (rounded to 8). 105% of that ... oh, let's call it 9. The Fighter needs 9 rounds to drop the Ogre.
The Ogre has a BAB of +9/+4, which with strength, size, and weapon focus is +15/+9. In a full attack, he will need to roll a 2, and then an 8, in order to hit. The chances to hit on each are 95% and 65%, so the Ogre can expect to average 160% of his single-swing damage each round. That single-swing damage is now +2 higher thanks to Weapon Specialisation, so it has risen to 2d6+8; the average is now 15, and thus the per-ropund average comes out to 24hp. The Ogre now needs only three rounds in which to drop the Fighter.
And note, the above discussion of full attacks still ignores the effects of disparate reach, and the Large and In Charge feat itself.
CONCLUSION: The advantage is now even MORE in favor of the Ogre; the Fighter and TWO friends come out to a roughly 50/50 chance of winning, or all dying ... and two of them almost certainly WOULD die.
Skills
Er, the situation here won't change ... the Fighter still wins, hands down.
...
FINAL CONCLUSION: As with any creature with an ECL, at the early levels you will be at a disadvantage, but in later levels the higher attributes can more than make up for early weaknesses ...
if you play to type. Obviously, an Ogre Cleric isn't going to be the best diplomat of the party, class skills or no (though without a penalty to Wisdom, Ogre Clerics
are an interesting prospect, eh?).
Now, the ogre gets strength and reach, but is that really worth the disadvantages in other areas? I don't think even +5 ECL is balanced. It's certainly not "far too low." And +8 ECL is just ridiculous.
Yes, the Strength, CONSTITUTION, and Reach are definitely worth the relatively minor disadvantages (a handful of feats, a bucketful of skill points, and the town militia trying to "defend the village" every time you want to get a stinkin' ale at th local pub
).
I'll tell you what ... if you still disagree, you and me ... you twink any PHB-race Fighter (at least 10 lkevels of Fighter, say) you want. Use any feats, prestige classes, or whatnot from the "splatbooks" ... I certainly will. Meanwhile, I'll do an Ogre Fighter. Say, 20th level / ECL 20. Just short of epic. Standard 760,000gp for equipment.
Actually, Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, or Paladin, for either of us. (Well, obviously not Paladin for a -4 Charisma race, heh).
No leadership feat ('sides, you don't REALLY want to face an Ogre captain-general with an army of orcs or the like, now, do you?); keep things simple, just the two characters compared to each other ... no friends, etc. "Charmies", i.e. created undead, animal companions, etc, are fine though.
OFC, I have the ELH, so if you want to compare at Epic scale, go for it -- again, just let me know ahead of time. Lastly, if you don't want to be restricted to being primarily a Fighter, fine, say the word, but I won't be restricted to an Ogre anything, in return. Think of it this way: you can plan for facing an Ogre, and pick feats and equip yourself accordingly.
'Course, I can be darned devious, so ... heh.
