Templates tend to suck?

[Pax]

An Ogre/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 crushes any 8th level melee fighter type made with only PH classes. By the time you reach +6 BaB (for the second attack) and 2 levels of fighter (giving you enough feats to be versatile) and Barb 1 (+4 Str), the PH fighter has no chance. ECL +5 might actually be balanced for an Ogre if the players build smackdown characters with access to lots of books. However, it is clearly too low for the Core rules.

Just remember, an Ogre Barbarian (1) / Fighter (2) has a BAB of 7 ... 4HD of Giant willgive you a BAB of +4 ... Ogres, like many giants, aren't Medium-sized and so they suffer size-based penalties to their attacks, and to AC.

 

[hong]

Just remember, an Ogre Barbarian (1) / Fighter (2) has a BAB of 7 ... 4HD of Giant willgive you a BAB of +4 ... Ogres, like many giants, aren't Medium-sized and so they suffer size-based penalties to their attacks, and to AC.

Giant BAB is level x 3/4, so an ogre bar1/ftr2 has BAB +6.

 

[Spatula]

Just remember, an Ogre Barbarian (1) / Fighter (2) has a BAB of 7 ... 4HD of Giant willgive you a BAB of +4 ... Ogres, like many giants, aren't Medium-sized and so they suffer size-based penalties to their attacks, and to AC.

What hong said. The PHB ogre has a +8 to hit with its club: +3 BAB +5 STR -1 size +1 weapon focus.

 

[ruleslawyer]

OK, so here's a follow-up question:

Anyone think ogres are worth it at ECL +8, as FRCS and Dragon 298 recommend?

 

[ashockney]

I think the revised ECL's for FR and from Dragon are way too high. The biggest problem we've found with the templates is two-fold:
1) You're typically way too tough when you first get them compared to other characters.
2) You can become "tougher" at higher levels, but compared to what?

I think Pax's example is a good one. That's a sweet Ogre, fun to play and devastating in the right circumstance. Is he worse than the Paladin/Fighter/Weaponsmaster that I dm'd who used a Falchion, and could do a Vorpal Whirlwind Attack as a standard action? Not really.

I much prefer the method I've read that they'll be using in the upcoming Creature Catalog, which will treat the "race" like a prestige class, and allow you to spread the value out over more time, and enjoy the benefits of playing along with the rest of the party in a campaign that goes from 1st to 20th level.

 

[Caliber]

Hopefully Savage Species (which should be out in ~22 days) will help clear up some problems.

Hopefully.

 

[Pax]

What hong said. The PHB ogre has a +8 to hit with its club: +3 BAB +5 STR -1 size +1 weapon focus.

Oops, my bad ... I *did* forget the Weapon Focus when I lookd at the listed attack value. *blush*