Templates tend to suck?

[vic20]

I think if you took a PC ogre fighter 1 and put him up against a human fighter 1, the battle would be fairly even (assuming the characters were built with the same level of twinkdom of course).

Care to elaborate on this? The ogre fighter would invariably destroy the human fighter. Every time. No problem.

Typo perhaps?

[edit: typo of my own...]

 

[James McMurray]

Sorry, that should have been against a human fighter 6.

 

[James McMurray]

Don't forget to give him the "Ogre" template

-Hyp.

I might do that. What's the ECL for the template?

 

[vic20]

Sorry, that should have been against a human fighter 6.

I knew it had to be something like that.

Did you know that all of the race ECLs have been errated in FRCS? I didn't, but somebody pointed this out in another thread here recently. Effectively, everything has been bumped up. Ogres are ECL+8 I believe. I'm wondering if this is going to be part of the revised DMG...

 

[Hypersmurf]

I might do that. What's the ECL for the template?

Well, the ECL for the template is +5... but it drops the racial ECL of the ogre down to +0, so you're not losing out.

After the FRCS errata, the template might be +8, though...

-Hyp.

 

[Geoff Watson]

Don't forget the 4d8 extra hit points, the +3 extra BAB, the +4/+1/+1 bonuses on saves, the 6 skill points, the feat, etc.

If anything, +5 ECL is far too low for an Ogre.

Geoff.

 

[James McMurray]

+5 may be low, but +8 is certainly too high. With that, you'll only have around 46 hit points and a +4 BAB. Certainly no match for a 9th level fighter even with nice reach tricks.

 

[Grog]

Sorry, I meant templates and/or monster races. My mistake.

Don't forget the 4d8 extra hit points, the +3 extra BAB, the +4/+1/+1 bonuses on saves, the 6 skill points, the feat, etc.

If anything, +5 ECL is far too low for an Ogre.

Well, compare the benefits from the Ogre to the benefits from a 5th level fighter.

4d8 HP vs. 5d10 HP - advantage fighter.
+3 BAB vs. +5 BAB - advantage fighter.
saves - same.
6 skill points vs. 16 skill points - advantage fighter.
1 feat vs. 5 feats - advantage fighter.

Now, the ogre gets strength and reach, but is that really worth the disadvantages in other areas? I don't think even +5 ECL is balanced. It's certainly not "far too low." And +8 ECL is just ridiculous.

 

[Brekki]

Using Soldarin's ECL calculator ... (I quite like that one )

ECL of an Ogre
+1 : Large Size
+2 : 4 HD Giant
+1 : +5 Natural Armor
+1.2 : Str,Dex,Con
-0.4 : Int,Wis,Cha
+0.2 : Strength 20 or higher
==========
+5 : Total ECL

 

[Wippit Guud]

Well now... you're limiting yourself to just one race here... look at some of the other ones...

I'd give up a few levels to be a blink dog rogue... free action, at will, dimension door....