Templating Vermin

[Storm Raven]

When you apply one of the alignment based templates to vermin (such as making a fiendish monstrous spider, such as could be summoned with a summon monster spell), their Intelligence becomes 3 (because that is the minimum for a fiendish creature, per the template).

Does this eliminate the "mindless" quality vermin have? The template doesn't say that templated creatures lose any of their attributes, but the vermin is no longer mindless per se once its Intelligence is set at 3. I'm not sure either way. Opinions?

 

[paranoid]

Augmented Subtype: A creature receives this subtype whenever something happens to change its original type. Some creatures (those with an inherited template) are born with this subtype; others acquire it when they take on an acquired template. The augmented subtype is always paired with the creature’s original type. A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type.

Vermin Traits: Vermin possess the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

So when you summon a fiendish monstrous spider, it is of the type Magical Beast, and has the subtypes Augmented Vermin and Extraplanar. Augmented vermin loses its traits, among them the Mindless trait.
A while ago, I was looking for the answer myself, and that is the best I got.

Note also that your Int 3 Spider will be able to understand common:

A creature can speak all the languages mentioned in its description, plus one additional language per point of Intelligence bonus. Any creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher understands at least one language (Common, unless noted otherwise).

I am quite unhappy with the fact that I have to read across the whole MM to figure out the stats for a simple creature summoned by a core spell, I think WotC should have provided stat blocks for all summoned monsters. Just try calculating the sting damage and save DC for a summoned gargantuan fiendish monstrous scorpions' poison on the fly, having the augment summoning feat, and you know what I'm talking about.
Actually, I'm doing WotC's job right now and am in the process of making a little spreadsheet with all re-calculated stat blocks for all summoned monsters. I'll post it when I'm ready.

-p.

 

[Storm Raven]

So when you summon a fiendish monstrous spider, it is of the type Magical Beast, and has the subtypes Augmented Vermin and Extraplanar. Augmented vermin loses its traits, among them the Mindless trait.
A while ago, I was looking for the answer myself, and that is the best I got.

Augmented vermin? Yeah, that was clear. And now I know the rule is pretty stupid too. I'm probably going to discard it and say that (magically) summoned vermin remain mindless even with their increased Intelligence score), because it seems fitting that vermin should be mindless. I'm still on the fence over that though, I'll have to look at it and see how it balances.

Note also that your Int 3 Spider will be able to understand common:

Interesting. Another rule I'm going to toss.

I am quite unhappy with the fact that I have to read across the whole MM to figure out the stats for a simple creature summoned by a core spell, I think WotC should have provided stat blocks for all summoned monsters. Just try calculating the sting damage and save DC for a summoned gargantuan fiendish monstrous scorpions' poison on the fly, having the augment summoning feat, and you know what I'm talking about.

Luckily for me, I decided to use an older version of the Augment Summoning feat (the one where the creature gets a +1 competence bonus to attacks and damage and +1 hp per HD), so those calculations are easier. On the other hand, I did this to allow stacking with the Conjure Mastery feat from BoEM, so I'll have to do those calculations eventually if anyone decides to try to take that feat. (None of my PCs have been much interested in summoning things yet).