Temporary Hit Points
- Thread starter kmdietri
- Start date
Actually, it depends on what you are talking about. Temporary hit points often "quasi-stack".
Say, for example, your Cleric cast Aid for 5 points on you on round one and then you manifested Vigor for 10 points on yourself on round one. The points do not stack, however, if you take damage, you still get the greater of the two spells/powers at any given time. So with this example:
10 temporary points from Vigor, take 7 points of damage in round two, the 5 point Aid "takes over", take another 7 points of damage in round three, the temporary points for Aid go away and you take 2 points of real damage, the 3 remaining points of Vigor then take over, take another 7 points of damage in round four for 4 more real points of damage.
Total real damage: 6
This is very close to them stacking (21 damage - 15 temporary points = 6 real points), the only difference is that you took 2 real points on round three and 4 real points on round four, as opposed to all 6 real points on round four.
Now, Vigor states that it replaces the temporary points from an earlier Vigor, so this does not happen if you manifeset Vigor on yourself twice.
But, this is what happens if you have various different spells give you temporary hit points. The most powerful spell is in effect while the other spells are temporarily nullified.
Course, I think this is merely an oversight and the designers wanted the largest number of temporary hit points to take precedence and replace earlier spells. But, they did not state this, it is merely implied that they wanted to do this by the text of the Vigor power.
Edit: PS. If the designers change it to "replace current temporary hit points" in the future, it can really mess up Psions.
PC Psion: I manifest a 10 PP Vigor and give myself 50 temporary hit points.
Evil DM: The enemy Cleric casts Aid on you and gives you 4 temporary hit points, replacing the 50 you had.
PC Psion: Arrrrgggghhhhh
Say, for example, your Cleric cast Aid for 5 points on you on round one and then you manifested Vigor for 10 points on yourself on round one. The points do not stack, however, if you take damage, you still get the greater of the two spells/powers at any given time. So with this example:
10 temporary points from Vigor, take 7 points of damage in round two, the 5 point Aid "takes over", take another 7 points of damage in round three, the temporary points for Aid go away and you take 2 points of real damage, the 3 remaining points of Vigor then take over, take another 7 points of damage in round four for 4 more real points of damage.
Total real damage: 6
This is very close to them stacking (21 damage - 15 temporary points = 6 real points), the only difference is that you took 2 real points on round three and 4 real points on round four, as opposed to all 6 real points on round four.
Now, Vigor states that it replaces the temporary points from an earlier Vigor, so this does not happen if you manifeset Vigor on yourself twice.
But, this is what happens if you have various different spells give you temporary hit points. The most powerful spell is in effect while the other spells are temporarily nullified.
Course, I think this is merely an oversight and the designers wanted the largest number of temporary hit points to take precedence and replace earlier spells. But, they did not state this, it is merely implied that they wanted to do this by the text of the Vigor power.
Edit: PS. If the designers change it to "replace current temporary hit points" in the future, it can really mess up Psions.
PC Psion: I manifest a 10 PP Vigor and give myself 50 temporary hit points.
Evil DM: The enemy Cleric casts Aid on you and gives you 4 temporary hit points, replacing the 50 you had.
PC Psion: Arrrrgggghhhhh
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Thanee
First Post
This is not correct, K'sDad.
They do not stack in any way. If you have Aid for 5 and Vigor for 10 running, and take 7 points of damage, you then have 3 temporary hit points left. If you take another 7, you take 4 real damage and have no temporary hit points left.
The 5 from Aid do not affect the outcome in any way, only the highest counts.
I think it's best to see them as overlapping (same way the energy resistance spells do).
The first 5 points of damage are deducted from BOTH, the Aid and the Vigor, and then only the other 5 from Vigor are left.
In any case, you have only 10 temporary hit points, regardless of how you turn it.
Otherwise they would stack, and they don't do that.
Bye
Thanee
They do not stack in any way. If you have Aid for 5 and Vigor for 10 running, and take 7 points of damage, you then have 3 temporary hit points left. If you take another 7, you take 4 real damage and have no temporary hit points left.
The 5 from Aid do not affect the outcome in any way, only the highest counts.
I think it's best to see them as overlapping (same way the energy resistance spells do).
The first 5 points of damage are deducted from BOTH, the Aid and the Vigor, and then only the other 5 from Vigor are left.
In any case, you have only 10 temporary hit points, regardless of how you turn it.
Otherwise they would stack, and they don't do that.
Bye
Thanee
atom crash
First Post
I think logically what Karinsdad suggests makes some sense, but by the gods it would take some accounting to keep track of it. Not pretty.
From a game standpoint, Thanee's ruling is simpler and easier to track. Plus you don't bother with the "quasi-stack" loophole. The rules say that temporary hit points don't stack, so they don't stack.
Perhaps they meant only the source of the largest number of temporary hit points takes effect. So if you have 10 temp hp and you get 5 temp hp from another source, only the 10 take effect. The 5 are disregarded. But if you were already down to 3 temp hp from the first source and then you got 5 temp hp, only the 5 would take effect and the 3 are disregarded.
From a game standpoint, Thanee's ruling is simpler and easier to track. Plus you don't bother with the "quasi-stack" loophole. The rules say that temporary hit points don't stack, so they don't stack.
Perhaps they meant only the source of the largest number of temporary hit points takes effect. So if you have 10 temp hp and you get 5 temp hp from another source, only the 10 take effect. The 5 are disregarded. But if you were already down to 3 temp hp from the first source and then you got 5 temp hp, only the 5 would take effect and the 3 are disregarded.
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Thanee said:
Except it is not written (or even implied) anywhere that this is what happens. House rule.
Thanee said:
Just going by RAW here Thanee.
It is not a stack. It is "the most powerful spell up at the moment" effect.
"Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies."
So, if Vigor did not have the special wording in it that it replaces the temporary hit points, it would switch back and forth between the Vigor with "the best strength".
Since Aid does not have that wording, this is how it works for Aid.
"One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion."
So, the more powerful Aid spell renders the weaker Aid spell useless (since "the best one applies" from the previous rule), and then when the other Aid spell is "the best one", it renders the new weaker Aid spell useless.
Now, I see a good argument for "the best strength" spell is always the best strength one (even if it weakened by losing temporary hit points), but even that would not stop:
Vigor for 50 temporary points lasts 5 rounds
Aid for 4 temporary points lasts 7 minutes
When the Vigor goes down due to duration, the Aid goes up because Aid is rendered useless by the Vigor, but it is still active and once the duration of Vigor expires, it no longer renders the Aid spell useless in some fashion (in this case, for temporary hit points).
Thanee
First Post
KarinsDad said:Except it is not written (or even implied) anywhere that this is what happens. House rule.
It's clarified in the FAQ. Temporary hit points do not stack.
What you do is stacking them, because you eventually get to use them all, that's stacking, since you gain the added benefit of both spells, which is not allowed.
Bye
Thanee
Thanee said:
That is incorrect.
Stacking is using a bonus or advantage from more than one source at the same exact time.
Like the multiple concealment bonuses, you don't get to make more than one concealment roll because you would be doing it twice at the same time.
Also, the FAQ does not clarify it. It merely states that they do not stack.
This is not stacking.
Stacking is adding all of the temporary hit points from multiple sources like from a Body Feeder weapon together so that they are all available at the same time. The FAQ explains what stacking is for a Body Feeder weapon and my explanation here is not stacking as defined in the FAQ.
So, if you have a 10 point Vigor up and a 5 point Aid up, a 30 point Fireball will do 20 points of damage to you. Your 5 point Aid then immediately kicks in.
If you take no more damage in that combat, than the Aid temporary points would not be lost. If they stacked, you would have only taken 15 points of damage.
The definition of stacking is "Combined for a cumulative effect". It is not cumulative here, only the best applies at any point in time.
Further:
"For example, two bless spells don't give twice the benefit of one bless. Both bless spells, however, continue to act simultaneously, and if one ends first, the other continues to operate for the remainder of its duration."
Neither the FAQ nor the RAW disagrees with what I wrote here. If you have an actual rule or FAQ statement that indicates that you lose the temporary hit points from multiple spells, please post it.
But the phrase "stacking" cannot really be used in your argument because stacking is defined as a cummulative effect.
Btw, I don't really care how this works, I am just reading this according to RAW and the FAQ. If you come up with rules that disagree with it, please post them.
Thanee
First Post
And you do not see a cumulative effect there, if you use them up one after the other?
Well, I do.
Of course, it's a little different, than regular stacking of spell effects, since these are "used up". Normally you just have two effects, one is greater and used, but they are not used up. The main effect of the temporary hit points is being used up and when you use them all up successively, you have had a cumulative effect, and therefore stacking.
As above, I see it similar to Resist Energy / Protection from Energy. These effects do not stack as well (they overlap) and any damage is applied to every single one, but only the highest actually protects, still they all get lessened by the damage (where applicable). If you have a 20 point resistance and a 10 point protection left, when you get 10 points of damage, the protection is gone, altho it wasn't the highest at that point.
I think temporary hit points work like that, since they do not stack.
The rules for them are not exactly exhaustive for sure.
Bye
Thanee
Well, I do.
Of course, it's a little different, than regular stacking of spell effects, since these are "used up". Normally you just have two effects, one is greater and used, but they are not used up. The main effect of the temporary hit points is being used up and when you use them all up successively, you have had a cumulative effect, and therefore stacking.
As above, I see it similar to Resist Energy / Protection from Energy. These effects do not stack as well (they overlap) and any damage is applied to every single one, but only the highest actually protects, still they all get lessened by the damage (where applicable). If you have a 20 point resistance and a 10 point protection left, when you get 10 points of damage, the protection is gone, altho it wasn't the highest at that point.
I think temporary hit points work like that, since they do not stack.
The rules for them are not exactly exhaustive for sure.
Bye
Thanee
