Terrible experience with Troll Haunt Warrens module

[GMforPowergamers]

Mostly, though, I think it's the trolls' to-hit bonuses and abysmal defenses that are causing the biggest problems. I have a Swordmage and an Avenger with 30 and 31 ACs, so a +15 to attacks just doesn't cut it. (Also, the Swordmage is a Fire Genasi, so the trolls basically never get to regenerate.)

I thought as you do (I had a eldrin swordmage with an AC of simalar, and a gensi tac lord that was only a hair behind...and a elvin archer ranger that throw more damage per round then I care to think about)

So then in another game (level 10, 4 players most non optimized) I threw 5 trolls (MMI level 9 Brutes) and it was a little longer of a fight, and a bit of a drag...then one of my plsyers told me they never felt threatned, they knew they were going to win from the end of round 2 on.

Then in a game I play we had a troll (MMI level 9 brute) thrown against us at level 5-6 (two players at 6 three at 5) and I was the warlord at 5th level...and it was a grind. I threw 1 daily (Let everyone hit the troll becuse it was bloodied) and even then it was to just try to end the boraing grind of a fight.

I really think trolls need to go back to ground zero and be rebuilt...I also feel ogers need this as well.

 

[LostSoul]

I don't think it's just trolls; I think nearly every single Brute in the MM needs to be rebuilt.

Low defenses and low attacks? Fine. They're supposed to miss often, be easy to hit, but when they connect you feel it.

Except they don't do much damage. Compare most Brutes to Soldiers of the same level - the damage is usually pretty close.

I think Brutes should do more damage. Generally my rule is to give them another die of damage (trolls would do 3d6+6 in that case, a fair amount). It would be better if it was slightly situational, like a Troll grabs with its claw attack, and then has a Rend attack against grabbed targets only for 3d8+6 damage without an attack roll (or maybe an attack with a bonus).

That would make them scary, even if it rarely happens.

 

[Obryn]

I think Brutes should do more damage. Generally my rule is to give them another die of damage (trolls would do 3d6+6 in that case, a fair amount). It would be better if it was slightly situational, like a Troll grabs with its claw attack, and then has a Rend attack against grabbed targets only for 3d8+6 damage without an attack roll (or maybe an attack with a bonus).

That would make them scary, even if it rarely happens.

That's a good point, and I hope the Troll Witch has something like this effect on the fight including her. She has a power to make it so trolls do an extra +1d6 with every attack.

Also, I'm extending Skalmad's aura, so all trolls get a +2 to attacks. I want at least one troll fight to be scary. (They honestly need a +4, but I don't want to go overboard.)

-O

 

[LostSoul]

The cool thing about a Rend like that is that it would trigger important decisions points from players. (Or so one would hope!)

By making the "Rend" attack dangerous, do the PCs focus on the boss, leaving the PC to suffer a massive hit, or do they force-movement the grabbing troll away (probably having to spend encounter powers to do so)?

I think that's what you want, in general, with brutes: do you ignore the brutes, even though they can smack the crap out of you, or do you focus on the guys they are protecting? (The guys they are protecting should be making the brute's attacks more likely to hit, or to set the brutes up to do their more damaging attacks.)

PS. Ghouls and Deathjump Spiders would probably be better if they were brutes. Lower defenses, lower attacks (in the case of Ghouls - +12! - DJ Spiders have a +6, and are only one level lower), but still massive damage.

 

[OchreJelly]

I agree with the sentiment that it's really the brute role and the sheer amount of them in the dungeon, that adds to the sense of ease. The fighter had like AC 29, so the trolls would miss pretty often, and in return just about all PCs could consistently hit them. The trade-off should be more damage when they do hit. I think another tweak that may help is make the Warren Troll's bite attack be at will instead of encounter. It deals some hefty damage, and it already has a trade-off built in because it isn't a reach attack.

As someone pointed out earlier, there are no problems with the nothics. My PC's grew to dread them.

 

[keterys]

There are some brutes that don't suck... ancient white dragons, firebred hell hounds, thunderfury boars, etc... but yeah, a lot of them are screwed up. It's especially disconcerting because there are plenty of _soldiers_ who have the best attack and defense who deal more damage than brutes.

 

[Markn]

I have the distinct impression that they made a design change to damage/hp very late in development. Its such a shame as 4e does some things very well and the math is so fine tuned that errors are easier to spot.

 

[keterys]

It is indeed my understanding that defenses, damage and hp were both changed late in the playtest process.

That said, it's been my impression (though not a carefully examined or researched one) that if you look at the second year monsters (ie, not the MM or intro modules, but MM2 and later) that defenses and damage are a lot better.

 

[Markn]

Agreed. Its such a shame though that most of the iconic monsters aren't up to par and are left for DMs to fix themselves. Chromatic dragons are a shining exmple of this. They are the epitome of D&D and they require a lot of changes to make them a more enjoyable encounter. I'd like to see monster updates (particularly dragons) in future products or at the very least, alternate versions in dragon adventures.

 

[tennesay]

Our group is currently going through this dungeon because of time constraint on a custom campaign. It seemed alright at first, but we had to cut the HP of the monsters by 25% because it simply was taking too long. About an hour and 30 minutes per encounter even the easy ones. There are 6 of us. 3 strikers and 1 defender and 1 controller and 1 leader. I think my ranger might not be the most optimized ranger but the assassin is. He does upwards of nearly 100 damage when he hits, which is unfortunate because his rolls are pretty crappy most of the time. I also have to tell him that he can use his ki focus to increase the power of his shadow blade (before he thought nothing enhances it and making it really bad, so we said it became a magic item 1 less than current level).

My current problem besides how long it takes for them to die is the lack of treasure. We went through 6 encounters and only got treasure Once! That really makes me kinda angry. I mean I got to the point where my character's alignment would have violently shifted from neutral to pure evil if the next enemies didn't have anything worth while on their corpses. I think I put it as, "If these guys don't have any treasure, this room will look like a room from F.E.A.R. after Alma has been through it". Also the dungeon appears to be unnecessarily large with a stupid number of encounters. My other problem is the poor XP we get making it unlikely that we will level at any reasonable rate.