Testament: In the Shadow of Sinai. (full)

[Maerdwyn]

Hmm, I find some of these categories a bit wrong from the Jewish way of thinking.

In the major sins categories I would include all the following as these are the ONLY things one cannot do to save a life

The book actually makes that clear, though i forgot to include it when typing - all but those activities you listed can be undertaken without penalty to piety in order to save a human life.

Also, 5 points or more varies quite a bit, with murder costing -10, for example. The non-piety based penalties prescribed also vary, from fine and recompense, to ostracism, to death, for example, such that sins with the same piety penalties may have very different earthly consequences within the community.

I don't mind altering some of the book-given values forthe sins; but I need to come up with something that is analogous to the way the piety system works with the other cultures presented in the book.

The commandments did not vary much pre-Temple. The main issue really being that with the temple sacrifices could only be offered there rather than elsewhere. Charity is not mandatory towards non-Jews, but is considered exemplary behavior, especially if it brings a non-Jew to bless God (not become a Jew necessarily).

In terms of the other commandments it would vary, especially when the oyther person is an idol worshipper (normally referenced to Baal, but would apply to any of the ancient idol worshipping cultures). Generally the Torah is VERY negative about those cultures, stating that they as a rule were not honest or trustworthy and one is not obligated to behave in such a manner towards them, especially if it would provide them an advantage.

Gotcha. Would that be true of commandments concerning things like murder and theft, as well? Practically, I'm just trying to get an idea of how the party will be expected to behave as they wander amongst a land poulated almost entirely by idolaters

For non-idol worshipping cultures the rule is different but I do not know of any ancient civilisations at the time that this would apply to.

On this last point, Zoroastrianism would certainly qualify; not sure if the party will be spending much time in Babylon/Persia, though, and at this time in history, was a rather upstart religion anyway.

 

[Ghostknight]

The book actually makes that clear, though i forgot to include it when typing - all but those activities you listed can be undertaken without penalty to piety in order to save a human life.

Umm, no. The ones I listed are the only ones that cannot be done to save a life. Evrythihg else is AALOWED to save a life. Thus I would see all of those in the top list of penalties as not "allowed under any circumstances"type of sins whereas the rest can be put in abeyance if it is to save a life. Othetr than that I have no issue with the way the game handles it - it is a game and mechanics are necessary

Gotcha. Would that be true of commandments concerning things like murder and theft, as well? Practically, I'm just trying to get an idea of how the party will be expected to behave as they wander amongst a land poulated almost entirely by idolaters

A difficult situation. Don't forgot the Jewish understanding is "DO not Murder", not "Do not kill". SO a soldier in wartime can kill, a person can kill in self defense etc. I would imagine that a spy, as operating for the betterment of the nation would be able to kill IF necessary. Arbitary murder would never be OK.

Theft is again a very muddy area. Property rights of idol worshippers were held as being less than binding - so if a lost item is found that in an area idol worshipper and it would belong to one of them, then it is not necessary to seek the person out to return it, whereas if it is in a Jewish area the reverse holds. That said, it would NOT be ok to arbitarily help yourself to anything you feel like just because it belongs to idol qorshippers!

On this last point, Zoroastrianism would certainly qualify; not sure if the party will be spending much time in Babylon/Persia, though, and at this time in history, was a rather upstart religion anyway.

True, but as you say Zaroastianism was still a very new and on the horizon religion, nowhere near the influece it would have later.

 

[yangnome]

I just wanted to let you know I am still working on my character. Its been a busy week with work, famil yand finals for school all taking my time. I thought I was going to get a break Friday to get the character together, but it turned out my wife got hte day off and stayed home with my daughter ( = no time for me to slack and work on game stuff ) The big assignments in my classes will be done tomorrow evening, so I should have a chance to get teh darn character done. I would just slap something together, but would prefer to put some htought in to the character first. I like to build my stats around a background and I just haven't had time to get that together yet. If you are getting tired of waiting for me, I understand. Feel free to dump me and bring in another player.

 

[Maerdwyn]

Feel free to dump me and bring in another player.

Three things:

Real Life takes precedence over gaming stuff
A well conceived character is better than a series of stats.
We've only got two characters posted anyway, so far.

Everyone, do your best, and we'll start when we're all ready, including me.

 

[Ghostknight]

First pass at character

Ok, here is the first pass at my character. He still needs equipment and a bit of detail but I want to check you are happy with the concept and other details as they stand.

Avram ben Yisroel

Male Human
Rogue
Alignment: Lawful Neutral

Str: 12 (+1) [4 points]
Dex: 16 (+3) [8 points +1level]
Con: 14 (+2) [6 points]
Int: 14 (+2) [6 points]
Wis: 10 (+0) [2 points]
Cha: 14 (+2) [6 points]

Class Abilties:


Hit Dice: 4d6
HP: 26
AC: 1 (+3 Dex), touch 15, flat-footed 17
Init: +3 (+3 Dex)
Speed: 30ft

Saves:
Fortitude +3 [+1 base +2 Con]
Reflex +7 [+4 base, +3 Dex]
Will +3 [+1 base, +2 Iron Will]

BAB/Grapple: +3/+4
Melee Atk: +6 Whip, 1d3 +1 dmg OR +6 Short Sword 1d6 +1 dmg

Skills:
Move silently 10 (7 ranks +3 Dex)
Hide 9 (6 ranks +3 Dex)
Intimidate 9 (7 ranks +2 Cha)
Bluff 6 (4 ranks +2 cha)
Knowledge (religion) 1 (2 Ranks) CC
Knowledge (architecture) 1 (2 Ranks) cc
Sense Motive 4 (4 Ranks)
Balance 6 (3 ranks + 3 Dex)
Open lock 6 (3 ranks + 3 Dex)
Appraise 5 (3 ranks +2 int)
Disable Device 6 (3 ranks + 3dex)
Disguise 6 (4 ranks, +2 Cha)
Escape Artist 6 (3 ranks + 3 Dex)
Tumble 6 (3 ranks + 3 Dex)
Diplomacy 6 (4 ranks, +2 Cha)
Spot 3 (3 Ranks)
Search 6 (4 ranks +2 int)
Gather Information 7 (5 +2 Int)
Climb 6 (3 ranks + 3 Dex)

Feats:Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Whip), Weapon Finesse, Iron will

Weapon Proficiencies: Simple weapons, plus the hand crossbow, rapier, sap, shortbow, and short sword. Light armor


Special Abilities Sneak Attack +2d6, Trapfinding, Trapsense, Evasion, Uncanny dodge

Languages: Egyptian, Hebrew Rank 2

Equipment:


Money: gp, sp, cp


Appearance: His black hair has been cropped short to the skull to remove his previous, very obvious, Egyptian style hair cut. He typically dresses in a robe covering his body, belted at the waist with tzit-tzit at all corners. His black eyes fade into the darkness of his face, deepset with prominent eyebrows above.


Background: Avram was born Sulei ibn Geria. His father was one of the forman on the building of the city of Pithom for Pharoah. He grew up around the hebrew slaves - delighting in tormenting them and giving orders to those much older than himself - yet another humiliation for the jewish slaves. When old enough he was apprenticed to his father and started work as a slave master in the building of the city, spending with the master architect and learning his trade.

Like others, he laughed at the coming of Moses, seeing an ineffectual Egyptian Prince that had fallen out of favor and making a play for power over the slaves. But the coming plagues shook him. Especially when the court magicians were no longer able to emulate the miracles that this God of Moses seemed capable off. The dying of the cattle, and the fiery hail from the sky convinced him that whomever thos God was that Moses and the hebrews called on, he was surely more powerful than any of the Egyptian Gods!

So he went to the land of Goshen, to the camps of the tribe of Manasseh, hoping that these descendents of an Egyptian minister would listen to him. He wandered the land, begging them to teach him and take him in, but some recognised him and chased him away. It was in the tribe of Judah that he finally found succour. An elderly man, Amir ben Shedrach haYehuda,
one whom he had once ridiculed, took him in and taught him of this God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of the Children of Israel. He changed his name to Avram, to honor the patriarch but not having the hubris to take the name given to the patriarch by God, and called his father Israel, forsaking all ties to his Egyptian heritage and family.

As the ninth plague of Darkness descended, he walked in the light with the rest of the faithful Jews, and as his teacher had no family of his own, when it came time to offer the Pascal sacrifice he went out, got a lamb, and slaughtered it for them both, smearing the blood on their doorpost - a final, and complete, break with his past - slaughtering a creature that previously had been his God.

In the morning he left with the Israelites, hastily packing his few possessions onto a cart, pulling bread not yet ready from the oven, put Amir onto a cart and joined the rest in moving off to worship. He saw his grieving parents on the way, his eldest brother one of the victims of the miracle of the previous night, but he held his head high, marching off without looking back.

At the sea he watched as the armies of Pharoah drowned, he had seen the Egyptian Gods defeated by Hashem, now he saw their physical might drowned and knew that with Hashem the Children of Israel could never loose!

 

[Tonguez]

I like the story of Avram ben Yisroel
a question - who is Hashem? (I assume a name for Moses?)
and is Yisroel = Israel?
(and Avram ben Yisroel would be anglicised to Abram ben Israel?)

 

[Ghostknight]

I like the story of Avram ben Yisroel
a question - who is Hashem? (I assume a name for Moses?)
and is Yisroel = Israel?
(and Avram ben Yisroel would be anglicised to Abram ben Israel?)

Thanks.

Hashem id the hebrew for God.

The rest you are correct on

 

[Maerdwyn]

Great characters so far, guys!

Ghostknight - we won't be using alignment. Piety takes its place

Just so you all know, I'm leaning towards handling piety changes "behind the screen" so to speak. If you don't have definite knowledge about what your piety score is, praying for aid, decding to risk temptation become less about number crunching, and more suggestive of faith, I think. Objections?

 

[humble minion]

Sorry about my absence from this thread recently. I'm currently in the middle of moving house, so I've got a lot on my plate at the moment. Hopefully things will have largely returned to normal by next week. In answer to questions raised earlier, I also like the idea of the gritty/mythic game style, and I have no problems with piety changes being handled out of player knowledge.

Well, I finally got hold of the book - the last unsold copy in southern Australia as far as I can tell.

Tempting as it is to base an entire character around the rather embarrassing typo on page 185 , I'm leaning towards going with my initial character concept, the reluctant prophet. A few questions though:

- In order to reach the skill requirements for the prophet class without having to wait until level 10 or something, I'm going to have to multiclass from ranger to Levite priest. My in-character rationale behind this is that when he started having prophetic dreams (ie, when he took the Dreamer feat at 3rd level), he realised that he was being called to duty by YHWH and began treating his religious studies and obligations more seriously than he had previously. Is this a plausible history for a priest? He will not be a member of the tribe of Levy - perhaps Asher or Judah (is there any difference, from a roleplaying point of view?)
- I'm looking to make him a middle-aged character, using the appropriate ability modifiers for his age applied after his stats have been generated. Is this ok?
- My concept of his was very much an outsider - not someone who has a great deal to do with the warriors and rulers of Israelite society, instead dwelling on the fringes and being somewhat looked down upon by the more urbane priests and the wealthy. I was originally thinking to make him a hunter, but as animals killed in this way are unclean as a food source, this is perhaps not realistic. I could decide that he hunts for pelts and to protect livestock from dangerous predators, but I'm not sure if this would be enough as a sole source of income. What would be another rough, low-status occupation that he could work at, that would not disqualify him from the priesthood? I was thinking gravedigger, stonecutter or woodcutter, but any comments or suggestions from the more knowledgable people here would be very welcome. Also, if all Levite priests at this time are descendants of Aaron, is it plausible that one of Aaron's line (Aaron is still alive, kicking, and second-in-command at this stage) has such a lowly occupation?
- How are we going to handle the requirement that Levite priests sacrifice livestock at the Temple or Tabernacle to regain spell slots, if the campaign involves wandering all over Canaan?
- Regarding the 3e/3.5e issue, I'd lean towards 3.5e (simply because it makes my ranger levels more powerful! ) but I am happy to go with the majority decision. I won't be taking enough ranger levels for spellcasting to be an issue, but even if we do end up playing 3e, I'd like to use the 3.5e archery combat style in place of the two-weapon fighting style. I just think it fits the mood and gritty style of Testament better than dual-wielding does.

Sorry for the long and rather interrogative post - looking forward to getting all this stuff out of the way and starting the game properly!

 

[Maerdwyn]

Sorry about my absence from this thread recently. I'm currently in the middle of moving house, so I've got a lot on my plate at the moment. Hopefully things will have largely returned to normal by next week. In answer to questions raised earlier, I also like the idea of the gritty/mythic game style, and I have no problems with piety changes being handled out of player knowledge.

Well, I finally got hold of the book - the last unsold copy in southern Australia as far as I can tell.

Tempting as it is to base an entire character concept around the rather embarrassing typo on page 185 , I'm leaning towards going with my initial character concept, the reluctant prophet. A few questions though:

- In order to reach the skill requirements for the prophet class without having to wait until level 10 or something, I'm going to have to multiclass from ranger to Levite priest. My in-character rationale behind this is that when he started having prophetic dreams (ie, when he took the Dreamer feat at 3rd level), he realised that he was being called to duty by YHWH and began treating his religious studies and obligations more seriously than he had previously. Is this a plausible history for a priest? He will not be a member of the tribe of Levy - perhaps Asher or Judah (is there any difference, from a roleplaying point of view?)
- I'm looking to make him a middle-aged character, using the appropriate ability modifiers for his age applied after his stats have been generated. Is this ok?
- My concept of his was very much an outsider - not someone who has a great deal to do with the warriors and rulers of Israelite society, instead dwelling on the fringes and being somewhat looked down upon by the more urbane priests and the wealthy. I was originally thinking to make him a hunter, but as animals killed in this way are unclean as a food source, this is perhaps not realistic. I could decide that he hunts for pelts and to protect livestock from dangerous predators, but I'm not sure if this would be enough as a sole source of income. What would be another rough, low-status occupation that he could work at, that would not disqualify him from the priesthood? I was thinking gravedigger, stonecutter or woodcutter, but any comments or suggestions from the more knowledgable people here would be very welcome. Also, if all Levite priests at this time are descendants of Aaron, is it plausible that one of Aaron's line (Aaron is still alive, kicking, and second-in-command at this stage) has such a lowly occupation?
- How are we going to handle the requirement that Levite priests sacrifice livestock at the Temple or Tabernacle to regain spell slots, if the campaign involves wandering all over the Canaan?
- Regarding the 3e/3.5e issue, I'd lean towards 3.5e (simply because it makes my ranger levels more powerful! ) but I am happy to go with the majority decision. I won't be taking enough ranger levels for spellcasting to be an issue, but even if we do end up playing 3e, I'd like to use the 3.5e archery combat style in place of the two-weapon fighting style. I just think it fits the mood and gritty style of Testament better than dual-wielding does.

Sorry for the long and rather interrogative post - looking forward to getting all this stuff out of the way and starting the game properly!

Middle aged is fine - so long is he his still spry enough to be a reasonable logical choice to be sent on missions for the people

As far as the multiclassing goes, it's fine game-wise, but I'm not sure it works with the way priests were trained at the time, especially given your character concept, which is cool, but not neccesarily compatible with being a kohein. Also, regarding your tribe. Aaron and Moses were of the Tribe of Levi - if your character is closely related to Aaron, then he is a Levite as well. A kohein at the time would have been a member of the Levites. (Ghostknight can fill us in if my understanding on these points is incorrect.)

If you want him to be a Levite, you can go with what you've posted, but might have to make the hunting/outsider thing part of his past, rather than his present.

If you don't want him to be a Levite, or want to keep him as an outsider in the present, I'm tempted to let you trade a couple of ranger class skills in return for ones you'd need for prophet - if that's something you'd want to explore. If you don't multiclass to Levite priest first, you still gains spell casting levels (only) as a Levite priest as a prophet when you join that class.
Archery instead of two weapon fighting is fine by me. Might consider using the 3.5e ranger even if we go with 3.0, depending on balance (I used Monte's 3.0 ranger in my last D&D campaign. The ranger has always been troublesome :sighs: ) I'll work with you.

Hunting and protection would be enough to live one, but remember that you are all with a group of nomads in the desert right now, living on manna, etc. Survival is the key right now - not much going on in the way of stoneworking, etc.

To regain spell slots, my current thinking is that a priest would need to make sacrifices at an altar - constructing and blessing one himself, if necessary because there is no altar to the Lord nearby. Again, I'll ask Ghostknight to comment here.