Thanee's Ultra Modern / no Base Classes

[Thanee]

I just have to sit here and chuckle, Thanee. Have you, by chance, already seen my attempt here to do the exact same thing for the D&D Base Classes? We've come up with nearly identical systems!

There is a big difference between D&D classes and modern base classes.

There are no special abilities. Modern base classes, are an attempt to go classless already, a rather bad one IMHO, as they all look the same (1,3,5,7,9,... bonus feat 2,4,6,8,10,... talent / plus the various combinations of BAB/saves/skills/etc). Furthermore, each class is simply some sort of specialisation, focussing on one of the six attributes and the bonus feats and talents reflect this.

So, it's obviously a lot easier to balance the point costs.

I think they do a rather bad job at providing a baseline for modern character concept. They are six highly restricted archetypes and many character concepts seem impossible to model halfway decently with these. For example, there is no class which gives you a character that is good (as in full BAB) at shooting (I understand, that this is a rather novel thought for a modern RPG , but still).

That's why I came up with the above... needs some finishing touches for sure.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Malacoda]

Hi there!

Had this idea floating in my head, since the class structure of d20 modern strikes me as odd... very odd.

The general idea is to remove classes entirely from d20 modern!

I have been working on a system for classless d20 Modern for some time now. My effort, called Custom Heroes, is on version 2.0 (or will be soon, anyway). It is point-based, and reworks all the talents as feats.

If you are interested in a copy, let me know. I don't have a site for it at the moment, but I can e-mail a copy. Drop me a line at: ialdabaoth@cableone.net.

 

[jaults]

The d20 Anime SRD, from Guardians of Order, also has a deconstruction of both the modern and fantasy classes into a points-based system. It is available here: http://www.guardiansorder.com/games/d20/srd/ in Chapter 5, specificially.

Jason

 

[doghead]

A little trial run. Its a mixture of Thanees and DrSpunji's system. I took DrS's save progression because it involved less decimal numbers, and his 5/3 CP cost for feats. I interpreted that to mean 5 unless it was specifically a progression from another feat.

-- Basic Rules --

Automatic Advancement

+0.5 BAB (fractional)
4 Skill Points
+1 to any save at every level (including first)

Selective Advancement

8 CP/lvl.

1 CP upgrade BAB to +0.75 -or- 2 CP upgrade BAB to +1.0
1 CP +2 Skill Points (maximum +6 SP)
5 CP select a entry feat
3 CP select a development feat
1 CP for a +1 to any additional save, maximum of +2 to any single save at 1st level and no more than +1 increase to any single save at all later levels.

-- Sample Character --

Goddot
Human Male 3
Concept: Soldier of Christ.

str 12 (+1), dex 15 (+2), con 13 (+1),
int 13 (+1), wis 14 (+2), cha 13 (+1)

* best 3 of 4d6.

BAB: +2.5
Saves: Ref +4, Fort +3, Will +4.
Skills (66 skill points): 13 Skills.
Feats: Level 1 divine spellcasting, Weapon Focus - sword, Weapon Specialization - sword.

-- breakdown --

Level 1
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 (2).
saves: ref +1, ref +1 (1), fort +1 (1), will +1 (1).
skill points: 4 +1 (int) +1 (human) + 6 (3) = (12 x 4) +4 -- TOTAL: 52.
feats: martial weapon prof (human bonus).

Level 2
bab: 0.5 + 0.5 (2)
saves: will +1.
skill points: 4 +1 (int) + 1 (human) + 2 (1) -- TOTAL: 8
feats: entry - weapon focus, sword (5)

Level 3
bab: 0.5
saves: fort +1
skill points: 4 +1 (int) +1 (human) -- TOTAL: 6
feats: entry - level 1 divine spellcasting (5) + advancement - weapon specialization, sword (3)

-- Notes --

Well I like it. The character is a bit vanilla, though.

The whole class/cross class distinction seems to be a bit irrelevent, but he needed 13 skills at 1st level to soak up all the skill points (given the max rank of 4 at first level).

I assumed simple weapon proficiency and light armour proficiency would be standard. Getting the all other the proficiencies of the basic fighter (Martial Weapons, Medium and Heavy Armour and Shields) would be a bit slow. Perhaps Medium Armour Prof. could be included as standard for all characters as well.

I like the idea of taking spellcasting levels as feats. For example, it allows for creating a 'political' cleric without all the spellcasting ability. Of course you could do this in regular dnd by multiclassing with a Expert for example - but who would?

A few more trials might be interesting. Perhaps we could start a thread and see what people come up with.

Hope that you don't mind this little hijack.

the head of the dog.

 

[doghead]

I'm tossing up whether to use this for my early 20thC setting (fantasy). I made it a 5/4/3 spread for feats and doodled up another character. Pretty much a straight cleric. Came out a little light, but you can see for yourself on the other thread if you wish.

Thanks for putting this thread up Thanee. And thanks DrSpunj for your notes.

the head of the dog

 

[DrSpunj]

Thanks for putting this thread up Thanee. And thanks DrSpunj for your notes.

Your welcome! And thanks to Thanee for pointing me towards d20 Modern. I had very much ignored the entire rules set except for just before the 3.5 release when many of the expected rule changes seemed to be mined/borrowed from d20 Modern. While the class setup is certainly very different I'm mostly looking it over now to see how to organize the feats and class abilities.

I just got Wulf's Grim Tales book and am thinking of using his version of Talent Trees with some different prereqs along the line of what Thanee suggests above. I think going that way may be a bit...cleaner than all the current prereqs I'm trying to use.

Some changes will be necessary, of course, given that I'd like someone to be able to Rage at 1st level and that's listed as an Advanced Talent right now (and therefore not available until 3rd level).

I do think I'll go with an ability prerequisite of 13 for most abilities. I keep thinking about 15 in a few places and wondered whether it's too complicated to have every previous Talent of that ability give you an effective +1 on your ability score to meet the prereq of 15. For instance, someone with a 13 and 2 Strong Talents would be able to take a Strong Talent with a 15 prereq. Is that too complicated/cumbersome? I'm not sure it's worth the trouble, honestly.

Thanks!

DrSpunj

 

[Thanee]

Hey, no problem.

@doghead: I think +1 to a save for each level is a bit much or not?

bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I assumed simple weapon proficiency and light armour proficiency would be standard. Getting the all other the proficiencies of the basic fighter (Martial Weapons, Medium and Heavy Armour and Shields) would be a bit slow. Perhaps Medium Armour Prof. could be included as standard for all characters as well.

Ah, right, proficiencies have to be covered also.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Any idea on Defense and Reputation?

With the above (1st post) being fairly balanced, they don't figure in well (some classes are just better in both, while the rest adds up to 8 CP).

Maybe BAB/HD must be higher in cost (it seems Strong and Tough are especially bad with Defense and Reputation)?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Vrecknidj]

Here's another idea. It's probably not what you're after, but putting more ideas out there might eventually get us to the ideal solution.

Create three basic characters. Give them all the same action points (5 + 1/2 level).

One has a good Fort save, a fast BAB advancement, a low reputation, a low defense, and 3 skill points per level. This class gets mostly combat-oriented feats to choose from at odd levels, and talents are from the Strong and Tough trees.

One has a good Will save, a slow BAB advancement, a high reputation, a low defense, and 7 skill points per level. This class gets mostly skill-based feats to choose from at odd levels, and talents are from the Smart, Charismatic and Dedicated trees.

The third has a good Ref save, a medium BAB advancement, a low reputation, a good defense, and 5 skill points per level. This class gets a wide assortment of feats to choose from at odd levels, and talents are from the Fast tree and maybe from another tree here or there.

To this, add some modular system like what you're proposing. But, the magnitude of the changes is relatively minor (fewer points gained and fewer options to purchase with those points).

It is more limiting than what you're suggesting, but it also has the benefit of being a bit more templated than amorphous, and so easier to use.

Dave