Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[The Firstborn]

You know what I like for an elven wizard? The bow of true arrows, bracers of archery, gloves of dexterity, boots of haste, quiver of spell storing, point blank shot (feat), and rapid shot (feat). Wondering what a quiver of spell storing is aren't you. A home brew quiver that allows a wizard to cast spells into the quiver then when an arrow is pulled out you choose which spell it is armed with. Where ever the arrow hits becomes the center of the attack. Pretty cool huh. You can get off two attacks every other round.

Round 1
activate haste (command word - free).
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
activate arrow from quiver of spell storing (command word - free).
activate bow of true arrows (spell trigger).

Round 2
shoot true arrow with spell (rapid shot)
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
activate arrow from quiver of spell storing (command word - free).
activate bow of true arrows (spell trigger).

Round 3
shoot true arrow with spell (rapid shot)
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
activate arrow from quiver of spell storing (command word - free).
activate bow of true arrows (spell trigger).

etc... til combat ends

Or

Round 1
activate haste (command word - free).
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
activate arrow from quiver of spell storing (command word - free).
Move

Round 2
shoot arrow with spell (rapid shot)
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
activate arrow from quiver of spell storing (command word - free).
Move

Round 3
shoot arrow with spell (rapid shot)
shoot arrow (rapid shot)
activate arrow from quiver of spell storing (command word - free).
Move

etc... til combat ends

Or some other combination.

 

[IceBear]

I wouldn't use that character as a "typical" counter argument to the mage vs fighter thing. I don't know what level he is, but that looks like a lot of equipment there.

IceBear

 

[Shard O'Glase]

So, what kind of game do you want to play as a wizard? Maybe this will give us and WOTC some insight into what you want to see. Do you want to be the all powerful wizard to whom all other PC's bow down to because your power is ultimate? Give us your framework for a game in which wizards are as good as fighters types.

I would but you are an ass and don't deserve it.

 

[Grog]

Let's see -- you are slamming on him for giving an example where every attack hits, and then recommend save of die spells that require saving throws that the BBEGs will almost always make.

Are you kidding? I could make an 11th level wizard with a Hold Monster save DC of 25. And that's just by core rules - not even getting into smackdown type characters. The BBEG would need a Will save of +14 just to have a 50/50 chance of saving. For the BBEG to "almost always" save against the spell, he'd need a Will save bonus of +20 or so. And if the BBEG has a Will save that good, just hit him with Polymorph Other. Very very few enemies have extremely high bonuses to both Fort AND Will.

And when you're not going up against BBEGs, look at the typical opponents you'll be fighting around that level. What's a fire giant's Will save bonus? +5 or so? Hold Monster = dead fire giant, in most cases. I doubt even the super, steroid-pumped fighters being talked about in this topic could take down a fire giant in one round without taking any damage in return.

I think 150 for the round is a little high, but I can come up with 35 points on an average hit without really trying, even ignoring criticals. So, figuring 2 sucessful attacks (out of the 3 plus the hasted attack), gives 70 points of damage.

I'd be interested to see an 11th level fighter that could do an average of 35 points of damage per hit by core rules. I'm sure you could do it with PrCs and splatbooks and such, but in that case, wizards get to use them too, and their power would also increase.

 

[ashockney]

Let's not make the moderators come in here and shut us down. This board prides itself on it's civility.

On the note of 12th level fighters dealing 60 - 80 points of damage in a round, see the "Sultans of Smack" thread for all this and more!

I'm visualizing the basic cleric with a quarterstaff doing Improved Two weapon Fighting, with Bless, Prayer, Greater Magic Weapon (x2), Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might.

Attacks:
+24/+24/+19/+19/+14

Damage 1d8+12/1d8+9

20x3 = 60
17x2 = 34
94 points of damage per round possible, 47 points average every round.

Not a fighter. Not hasted. Not multi-classing. No prestige classes. No strength domain. No smite.

No Bull.

This is all off the top of my head, please don't fry me for being off for a point here or there.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

And I thought things were warm and toasty over at the DR thread.

 

[Grog]

I'm visualizing the basic cleric with a quarterstaff doing Improved Two weapon Fighting, with Bless, Prayer, Greater Magic Weapon (x2), Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Might.

Attacks:
+24/+24/+19/+19/+14

Damage 1d8+12/1d8+9

20x3 = 60
17x2 = 34
94 points of damage per round possible, 47 points average every round.

Sure. But how many times a day can he do that? Except for GMW, all the spells you listed would only last for one battle except under unusual circumstances.

I'm interested in seeing these 11-12th level fighters who supposedly can do 150 points of damage per round in every fight, all the time.

 

[officeronin]

I am wondering about your second game where the fighter types are doing 70 to 80 points per round. What kind of monsters are they fighting? What kind of magic weapons, gauntlets, belts, etc... are they using? What did thier stats look like at first level and what are they now before magic? Did they get to read the +5 str, +5 dex, +5 con Tomes? Did they come in a set? Is the DM allowing bless, and bard song, aid, etc... all at the same time? Is the Wizard casting magic weapons and greater magic weapon on the fighter-types weapons on top of the magic +5 Keen edged flaming vorpal sword of wounding and icy burst? Come on now what are we talking about here? To do a proper analysis we need the full scoop not just final data. I wonder what these fighter types have for AC scores. Probably still get full use of thier magic shields even though they fight with two handed weapons right? Who knows.

Now after asking this stuff let me add this question. Do wizards and clerics get thier tomes, headbands of intellect, magic wands, rings, scrolls, etc... or is the game lopsided because of the DM's intervention.

You don't even have to try to do that kind of damage. A greatsword with some racked out strength (rage, a bull's strength, a cheap item -- whatever method you like) gets you to an average of 16 points on a hit, 32 on a crit. Add magical weapons, improved critical, divine might, specialization, power attack, reckless attack, etc. Season to flavor.

Your little jabs of "munchkinism" and "powergaming" do little to mask the fact that you don't know how to make a PC that's effective. Or, do you think that the greatsword is "munchkin".

You don't really need to do a proper analysis, because a proper analysis requires a definite opponent -- and there are many ways to get there. It's not that hard. You just need to figure out how to be competent. If you are a 10th level fighter and doing 10 or so points per attack, the DM should bring in a peasant of your level and take you to school.

True -- our group doesn't have a single sword and board guy. If you're a fighter going after AC, you'll never keep up with the cleric, so why bother?

So, was this just a clever ploy to avoid actually saying something on the topic?

OfficeRonin

 

[Caliban]

You know what I like for an elven wizard? The bow of true arrows, bracers of archery, gloves of dexterity, boots of haste, quiver of spell storing, point blank shot (feat), and rapid shot (feat). Wondering what a quiver of spell storing is aren't you.

Actually, I'm not wondering. I really don't care care about home brew items when we are discussing core rules.

A home brew quiver that allows a wizard to cast spells into the quiver then when an arrow is pulled out you choose which spell it is armed with. Where ever the arrow hits becomes the center of the attack. Pretty cool huh.

It doesn't sound "cool" at all. It sounds like an overpowered item and isn't relevent to a discussion of the core rules.

Also, "command word" activation is not a free action, it takes a standard action to activate.

So activating your boots takes an action, activating the quiver takes an action, and activating the true strike bow takes an action.

You can't activate the bow and the quiver in the same round and still attack.

Best you can do is activate both on one round and get two or three attacks on the next round. Or get two attacks a round while only activating one or the other every round.

 

[IceBear]

/me steps away from this thread

IceBear