Thanks, guys, you've ruined Haste for the rest of us.

[Storm Raven]

30 points of damage per attack ... ?!?!? Reliably hitting with them all ... ?

Now, that, I'd like to see, 'cause I don't think it can be DONE. figure, longsword, good strength, specialisation ... I can see 15 per attack (even "on average"). I can see hitting with half of his attacks, IOW, gettign a net per-round damage average of 30 to 40.

Archer. 11th level character. Ftr6/Rog3/OoBI2

16 Dexterity, 12 Strength. Add a Belt of Lesser Giant Strength +4 and Gloves of Dexterity +4.

Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (Composite Longbow), Weapon Specialization (Composite Longbow), Improved Critical (Composite Longbow)

+2 Mighty (16 Strength) Composite Longbow. +2 Arrows. Bracers of Archery.

BAB +10, +1 Focus, +2 Magic Bow, +2 Arrows, +5 Dexterity, +2 Bracers, (+1 Point Blank), -2 Rapid Shot

3 attacks per round, within 30 feet, +21/+21/+16.

Damage at 1d8+11 per arrow (within 30 feet).

Compare to typical CR 11 opponent such as a Cloud Giant with an AC of 21. His first two shots hit on everything but a 1. His third shot hits on a 5 or better (80% chance to hit). Each arrow does 15.5 points of damage on average.

Average per round damage vs. Cloud Giant: (.95 * 15.5) + (.95 * 15.5) + (.80 * 15.5) = 41.9. If he catches the Cloud Giant flat footed, this increases to 91.8 on a round of attacks.

He's probably slightly underequipped for an 11th level character. And you can do better with a melee specialist on damage, usually using a two handed weapon to maximize your Strength leverage.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

If you're THAT upset that they changed 1 spell, you were relying on that spell too much.

--Simple Spikey

 

[Shalewind]

And I thought things were warm and toasty over at the DR thread.

Yeah. I recomend it as a vacation spot now. Welcome Brown.

As to the haste argument. Shouldn't we get off the smackdowns and get back to the haste? Or just drop the issue and wait for a while... Say July?

 

[SpikeyFreak]

I'd be interested to see an 11th level fighter that could do an average of 35 points of damage per hit by core rules. I'm sure you could do it with PrCs and splatbooks and such, but in that case, wizards get to use them too, and their power would also increase.

11th level half-orc barb, raging with a +2 str item, a greatsword +1 and weapon focus does an average of 50.6 damage per round against a fire giant.

Give him another +2 from books and a +2 keen (or imp. crit) greatsword, and the damage goes to 66.24. If this guy power attacks for 1 it goes to 63.480 damage.

If you don't believe me check the link in my sig.

--Munchkin Spikey

 

[Fenes 2]

Ok, lets take this for example (just fooling arund with gear):

Level 8 Fighter / Level 6 Weapon Master*

Str. 26
2 Handed Sword, Keen, +5, Icy Burst
Improved Critical
Power Attack 5 (optimized)
Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialisation
Superiour Weapon Focus
Superiour Weapon Spec. (additional +2 dmg)*

*Home Brew or slightly altered

dmg per hit: 3d6+26, 36,5 on average
dmg per critical: 4d6+1d6+1d10+52, 75 on average

According to my damage calculator, against AC 20 he will do 114.92 dmg on average per round. Add in the ki-strike damage and he will do 15 dmg more per round until he has hit 6 times.

So, this fighter does 115 to 130 dmg on average in a round. Now, I may be mistaken, but I don't think such a fighter is typical for a level 14 PC, so I kinda doubt that level 11/12 fighters regularly do 35 dmg per hit...

In contrast, a level 14 sorcerer can do 14d6*1.5 with an empowered cone of fire, or 73,5 dmg with a failed save.
The DC for the save would be 10+5+8(Charisma 26)+1(Spellcasting Prodigy)+4(Greater Spell Focus)+2(Bloodline of Fire)=30. Just need 2 targets fail their save and you top the fighter handily.

I know I am no smackdowner, but this is not too bad.

IMHO, if there is not a too big unbalance in the amount of minmaxing the PCs undergo, then things should be fine without haste speeding up spellcasting.

 

[Grog]

As to the haste argument. Shouldn't we get off the smackdowns and get back to the haste?

Bah, every good thread around here has a smackdown or two in it

Seriously, though, SimonMoon5's whole argument was that wizards suck without Haste because mid-level fighters can do 120 to 150 points of damage per round. That's such a wild claim that I think it's reasonable to ask him to back it up.

 

[loisel]

Benchmark Fighter?

I've noticed that people are arguing over what's good damage for a fighter. On the one hand, you can have a level 20 fighter with 6 strength and a dagger-2, doing 1 damage per attack and not hitting a whole lot. Or you can have a level 12 fighter with a longsword+2 and a shield and strength 14, doing a mediocre 1d8+4 or +6 (specialization) and hitting once in a while.

Or you can have the standard half-orc greatsword fighter.

For the purpose of comparison, here is a "strong fighting" type at level 11. Note that this guy isn't munchkinized; he started out with 20 strength (not uncommon, counting the +2 half-orc bonus) and has a large number of fighter feats because, well, he's a fighter. However, he doesn't have kick-ass magical stuff, no keen anything, no weapons of impact/flaming, just plain stuff. In fact, if you have a wizard and/or a cleric, you can make this guy without any magical items at all. Also, I haven't accounted for haste, prayer, bard singing and other last-second buffs.

Half-Orc Ftr10/Barb1, Str 22 +2(bull strength, lasts all day, or gauntlets) +4(rage)=28, Feats: power attack, cleave, great cleave, weapon focus+specialization (greatsword), improved critical, quick draw, expertise, dodge, mobility (say). Assume a +3 greatsword (whether it's an actual +3 greatsword, or a Greater Magic Weapon from the wizard or cleric -- those last essentially all day.)
Attack bonus: +24/+19/+14.
Damage: 2d6+18.

Average Damage in one round against a single enemy, by AC and Power Attack used:

    Power Attack
AC   0     2     4     6     8     10
16 085.6 089.0 092.4 093.3 091.4 088.0
18 082.3 085.9 087.1 085.6 083.1 075.6
20 079.5 081.0 080.2 077.9 071.3 063.0
22 075.1 074.4 073.1 067.1 059.5 050.0
24 069.0 068.1 062.6 055.7 047.2 037.6
26 063.1 058.4 052.2 044.5 035.4 029.1
28 054.1 048.7 041.4 033.2 027.2 020.3
30 045.0 038.7 031.0 025.6 019.3 014.2

This chart looks complicated, but it illustrates that Power Attack doesn't help you that much for these situations. Hence, the most important column is the first one, and we might as well assume that Johnny Barbarian doesn't have Power Attack.

This chart takes into account criticals, with all the correct rules for criticals. For the source code, see http://www.math.mcgill.ca/loisel/avg.c

This doesn't take into account Cleave, Great Cleave, Whirlwind and other Weapons of Mass Destruction. If you play a higher-magic game (admittedly, this guy doesn't have many magic items -- possibly none) the damage increases dramatically.

So perhaps a good damage estimate for a "good fighter" would be 70-85 per round. If you're going to make multiple target arguments (such as fireball) you need to look into fighter multiple target skills (primarly whirlwind, but also cleave feats.) In particular, if the Bag-Of-Rats trick is allowed, there isn't anything that compares to a fighter with great cleave and whirlwind.

EDIT: My most profuse apologies for the erroneous original chart. See corrected code at the same link.

 

[Fenes 2]

Umm, loisel, the damage calculator I use (Spikeys, iirc) gives the average damage for your halforc fighter at 79,5 against AC 20 with no power attack.

 

[dcollins]

Re: Benchmark Fighter?

This chart takes into account criticals, with all the correct rules for criticals. For the source code, see http://www.math.mcgill.ca/loisel/avg.c

Try making your program account for the fact that natural "1"s are always misses (both to-hit and critical-confirmation), and then re-calculating the results.

Oh, and you're counting the attack bonus towards the possibilty of a critical, too. That's not exactly "the correct rule".

 

[the_mighty_agrippa]

mind you, i was playing a melee focused fighter until recently, so i love fighters. there are some basic assumptions that are being left out.

my hasted spellcasters were killing opponents at range before the fighters drew steel. spellcasters dominate ranged engagements and they can pick the time, place and duration of a fight - with or without haste.

granted, a great deal of that has to do with the game style, the dm, the players, etc. in order to get the proper feat progressions, most fighters are one trick ponies. no intelligent beastie i know is going to let the raging, two-handed weapon wielding, power attacking barbarian into position without one hell of an attempt to keep them at bay.