That Thread in Which We Ruminate on the Confluence of Actor Stance, Immersion, and "Playing as if I Was My Character"

[MarkB]

I would have thought that was just #1. Meaning you are observing something and intensely interested in that observation. I know chess and programming are kind of out there examples but I think what you said is what I mean as it applied to roleplaying games.

The thing is, #1 is a separate thing that I can experience in roleplaying games - becoming immersed in the tactical-board-game element of the system and acting based upon optimal game-mechanical choices. That's something I used to do a lot, particularly in 3e and 4e (linked more to my attitude as a gamer at the time than anything specific to those systems, I think).

That viewpoint is distinct from viewing the scene from an in-fiction standpoint while being a dispassionate bystander, which in turn is distinct from viewing the in-fiction scene through the eyes of your own very-much-not-dispassionate character. But they could all be considered a sense of immersion.

 

[Lanefan]

I would have thought that was just #1. Meaning you are observing something and intensely interested in that observation. I know chess and programming are kind of out there examples but I think what you said is what I mean as it applied to roleplaying games.

I can see what @MarkB is getting at here.

Three degrees, or types, of immersion:

-1- Immersion with the game mechanics. This is your chess example, and can be applied to RPGs as well at the at-table level.
-2- Immersion in the scene from within your character. You're seeing the game-world directly through the character's eyes.
-3- Immersion in the scene external from your character. You're watching your character move through the game-world, seeing both it and the scene around it.

 

[Scott Christian]

I experience immersion (as GM) in Roll20.

That is awesome. I expected some to be able to do it, but I do believe it is rarer. I mean people can have a great date online too, but the immersion isn't quite the same. May I ask (since so many are discussing the definition of immersion) what your definition of immersion is?

 

[S'mon]

That is awesome. I expected some to be able to do it, but I do believe it is rarer. I mean people can have a great date online too, but

the immersion isn't quite the same. May I ask (since so many are discussing the definition of immersion) what your definition of immersion is?

Someone above said it - the regular world sort of melts away, and you feel like you are there. As GM I'm probably experiencing it more like a film viewer, identifying with the protagonists. It can be much stronger as a player. It's a sort of altered state of consciousness, but not that different from watching a film in the theatre; or TV to a considerably lesser extent. A good first-person video game can have some of the same effect; but with a good RPG it's much stronger. I still feel the emotions of when eg my LG PC in a Midnight game had to execute a prisoner during a raid.

 

[S'mon]

I agree with the posters saying we dwell too much on disassociated mechanics.
Technically, most of what we do in RPGs is disassociated: rolling dice,

I disagree on that; if your dice roll reflects an attempted action in world then it is not dissociated. The classic example is rolling a d20 to make an attack; the d20 roll 'becomes' the sword strike, a little bit. I think that's one reason D&D moved away from 1 minute combat rounds where the association was much weaker. Another example is casting a fireball and rolling 8d6; to a degree the player feels like they are unleashing this devastating magical attack as they roll the dice. This is one reason I can't do 'players roll all dice' games; as GM I need to feel the association between the orc attacking and me rolling its d20+5.

 

[Aldarc]

I can see what @MarkB is getting at here.

Three degrees, or types, of immersion:

-1- Immersion with the game mechanics. This is your chess example, and can be applied to RPGs as well at the at-table level.
-2- Immersion in the scene from within your character. You're seeing the game-world directly through the character's eyes.
-3- Immersion in the scene external from your character. You're watching your character move through the game-world, seeing both it and the scene around it.

1. Gameplay Immersion
2. 1st Person Immersion
3. Isometric Immersion

 

[Emerikol]

I can see what @MarkB is getting at here.

Three degrees, or types, of immersion:

-1- Immersion with the game mechanics. This is your chess example, and can be applied to RPGs as well at the at-table level.
-2- Immersion in the scene from within your character. You're seeing the game-world directly through the character's eyes.
-3- Immersion in the scene external from your character. You're watching your character move through the game-world, seeing both it and the scene around it.

@MarkB

I was lumping #1 and #3 together. I saw it as a focus on something external or separate from #2. I wasn't dividing up any further.

 

[pemerton]

There's an article from a game designer of interactive fiction, stored on the internet archives that I found fascinating.

Crimes Against Mimesis

I was fascinated by the separation between the three parts, or partitions of personality while playing interactive fiction---the player, the character-as-cipher, and the character-as-fiction.

And I think there's a connection to be explored about how immersion is achieved---or not achieved, or even desired---where the intersection of those three concepts carries some weight.

And I wonder if the in-character sort of immersion can only be achieved when the player and character-as-cipher aspects are set aside.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but wanted to thank you for the link to Crimes Against Mimesis. It was a terrific essay, and although its about computer games it brings out so much that's useful for thinking about RPGing!

How many "immersion"-oriented D&D and similar games nevertheless involve the PCs collecting treasure in roughly-recognisable forms (potions and wands but not buttons or hair braids) from the rooms or bodies of defeated enemies? I'm fairly confident the answer is quite a few. But this is clearly a case of character-as-cipher rather than character-as-fictional-protagonist. Even the whole notion of the "adventure" very often reflects the same thing.

This is why I like to distinguish "immersion" from "inhabitation" of the character, where that gameplay aspect of the character really gets left behind.

For a blog dealing with a different aspect of RPGing, but actually grappling with some of the same character as game piece vs character as protagonist issues, you might be interested in this (which is linked to in the "Six Cultures of RPGing" blog that is mentioned in some other recent threads): The Sacrament of Death – Correspondence is about Diligence

 

[pemerton]

And I think we in RPG circles already understood the Reader-Player / Story Protagonist distinction, but I don't know that we've ever really separated "reader-player" from "game protagonist."

Ron Edwards has.

So has Robin Laws. You can see it in a game like HeroWars.

So has Greg Stafford. He does so in Prince Valiant (published in the late 80s).

It's true that D&D play hasn't really drawn the distinction. See my post just upthread of this one.

 

[pemerton]

I would be willing to bet no one has experienced immersion in Roll20.

Self-reporting is always unreliable. But I assert that I have experienced inhabitation of my character over Skype.