The 15 min. adventuring day... does 4e solve it?

[Mercule]

It only takes eight hours of rest for the mage to get his spells back. I always assumed adventurers work at night as well as day. When I did overland travel or daily time calculations, I calculated as though they would walk 8 or ten hours, eat quickly, rest 6 or 8 hours, travel, rinse and repeat. What do adventurers care if they are walking at night?

Well, acting inhuman is also a problem for verisimilitude.

Rules-wise, though, the wizard, sorcerer, barbarian, and anyone else who has "per day" or slotted abilities is going to be outta luck in 3e. You're only permitted one rest-and-reset per day. If you started at sun-up, the earliest you can continue is tomorrow at sun-up.

I have no problem with a raid on an overlord's castle taking two to three hours, in game. It isn't literally the "15 minute day" that bugs me. It's the anti-cinematic feel that comes from fighting a couple of guardrooms then having (and being allowed) to rest. If you can't handle the guards and keep going, then bring an army. If you don't want to set off an alarm, just how infrequently do you think the guards check in, anyway?

I can see the excitement in having to hold up in some nook in the Temple of Elemental Evil. It shouldn't be after every room or two, though. It shouldn't even be after every four rooms, usually. Your group should be able to make a significant impact before you rest. There should be a reason why they don't just mass and squish you.

Cave complexes can work well for this because you're essentially doing underground wilderness exploration. "And, today, we found the orc outpost. We killed most of them and the rest fled. We should have just enough time before they bring reinforcements -- if they intend to reclaim this area -- to tend the wounded, eat a meal, and get some light sleep."

But a lot of settings really don't work as well. I mean, really, who in their right freaking mind -- or even as nuts as adventurers -- is going to camp in Castle Ravenloft?

 

[firesnakearies]

I have no problem with a raid on an overlord's castle taking two to three hours, in game. It isn't literally the "15 minute day" that bugs me. It's the anti-cinematic feel that comes from fighting a couple of guardrooms then having (and being allowed) to rest.

Exactly! This is what I'm saying!

 

[Celtavian]

Well, acting inhuman is also a problem for verisimilitude.

Rules-wise, though, the wizard, sorcerer, barbarian, and anyone else who has "per day" or slotted abilities is going to be outta luck in 3e. You're only permitted one rest-and-reset per day. If you started at sun-up, the earliest you can continue is tomorrow at sun-up.

I have no problem with a raid on an overlord's castle taking two to three hours, in game. It isn't literally the "15 minute day" that bugs me. It's the anti-cinematic feel that comes from fighting a couple of guardrooms then having (and being allowed) to rest. If you can't handle the guards and keep going, then bring an army. If you don't want to set off an alarm, just how infrequently do you think the guards check in, anyway?

I can see the excitement in having to hold up in some nook in the Temple of Elemental Evil. It shouldn't be after every room or two, though. It shouldn't even be after every four rooms, usually. Your group should be able to make a significant impact before you rest. There should be a reason why they don't just mass and squish you.

Cave complexes can work well for this because you're essentially doing underground wilderness exploration. "And, today, we found the orc outpost. We killed most of them and the rest fled. We should have just enough time before they bring reinforcements -- if they intend to reclaim this area -- to tend the wounded, eat a meal, and get some light sleep."

But a lot of settings really don't work as well. I mean, really, who in their right freaking mind -- or even as nuts as adventurers -- is going to camp in Castle Ravenloft?

Not sure why this post is directed at me. I'm not for the 15 minute adventuring day at all.

I was just stating that the rule is eight hours rest.

That is not acting inhuman. Spec ops forces operated like that all the time. No idea why anyone would viewed insane adventurers that wander into dangerous dungeons and fight powerful monsters as anything less than a fantasy spec ops force.

That means they sleep minimally, eat minimally, and keep a wartime mentality until they are done with the mission or exploration.

Then it's party time in town where they catch up on sleeping and eating. That's my only point.

It isn't 24 hours of downtime. It's the minium downtime to get your resources back. That is 8 hours in 3E an 6 hours in 4E. I stick by that paradigm. As I said I see adventurers as very organized spec ops teams that learn to function at a minimal level to accomplish what they do.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Yeah, this couldn't go without a comment.

The Fellowship of the Ring didn't poop out after two hours in Moria.

They weren't fighting at any point of Moria until the end, and there they didn't even last two hours.

The Companions of the Lance didn't head for the locker room after two hours in Xax Tsaroth

Again, they weren't fighting nonstop the entire time.

The Knights of Myth Drannor didn't mix it up with the forces of Zhentil Keep for a couple hours and then say, "Whoa, hey guys, we're gonna call it for today, all right? See ya tomorrow, suckas!"

D&D has never been built to go with army vs army conflicts.

Perrin Aybara didn't just wake up in the morning, have a cup of kaf, spend a leisurely two hours fighting to drive the trollocs out of the Two Rivers, then yawn and stumble back to bed. "Gimme back my pillow, Faile."

One could easily claim that those books would have been better with less mindlessness and more plot progression

Conan the Cimmerian didn't hew and slay wildly through the teeming Nemedian hordes for two hours and then politely excuse himself until the morrow.

No, but he doesn't have to in his d20 game, either. Huh.

Elric of Melnibone didn't start fighting the Dukes of Hell with a lot of fire and fury, but then after a couple of hours decide that he was plumb tuckered out and maybe he should go grab some shut-eye before continuing the epic battle.

Already been covered.

The Scottish Highlanders didn't put in 120 solid minutes of woad-fueled bloodshed at the Battle of Bannockburn and then call a recess until the next day.

Last I checked, they didn't have any spellcasters who needed to rest.

The Spartans at Thermopylae never once stopped and said, "Well hell, boys. We've been killin' these Persians for at least an hour or two now, aint we? We deserve a break! Somebody fetch the lawn chairs and the margarita mix, and them invading bastards can just wait 'til tomorrow to wet our blades again!"

See above.

The problem with your examples is your statement that a dungeon is nothing but continuous rooms with monsters in it. That is the un-cinematic part, not the two hours. When was the last movie where the protagonist just waded through room after room of enemies? Compare that with the number of movies or books or stories or etc in which there's simply a screen cut from the three or four rooms he fights something and the end of the castle/mansion/space station. If you want your guys to go longer then two hours, stop making them fight everything at once.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Is the above quote for Sinister Secret of Staltmarsh?

Yeah. I thought it was kind of weird that concepts such as level and class were assumed to be known by the game world inhabitants. Shades of Order of the Stick.

 

[Fenes]

I have no problem with a raid on an overlord's castle taking two to three hours, in game. It isn't literally the "15 minute day" that bugs me. It's the anti-cinematic feel that comes from fighting a couple of guardrooms then having (and being allowed) to rest. If you can't handle the guards and keep going, then bring an army. If you don't want to set off an alarm, just how infrequently do you think the guards check in, anyway?

That's why I don't run adventures where that happens. It's one or two big fights - all out. I don't bother with small fights, I go for the climax.

In an assault on a castle, I'd expect the party to either sneak in through some tunnel, and go straight to the commander - or to bring an army, and then we'd play first the attack on the walls, and after the breach, the party goes for the commander while the army battles the rest of the guards.

But I'd never run an adventure where the party camps in an occupied dungen much less a castle.

 

[Imaro]

That is not acting inhuman. Spec ops forces operated like that all the time. No idea why anyone would viewed insane adventurers that wander into dangerous dungeons and fight powerful monsters as anything less than a fantasy spec ops force.

That means they sleep minimally, eat minimally, and keep a wartime mentality until they are done with the mission or exploration.

Yes.. yes they are spec ops, because now they're part of...

 

[Celtavian]

Yeah. I thought it was kind of weird that concepts such as level and class were assumed to be known by the game world inhabitants. Shades of Order of the Stick.

The only reason I remember Ned is because of a very amusing roleplaying occurence with one of the players I gamed with long ago.

After we met Ned and he travled with us for a while, he came to know our party and be trusted by at least one of the party members. So that when later we came upon Ned and he attacked us, that party member who had apparently befriended Ned called out to him with the words that now amuse me every time I hear Ned Shakeshaft mentioned.

Those words were, "Ned, is that you?"

I laugh every time I think about Ned trying to attack us with his trusty dagger and my fellow roleplayer so assured that Ned was trustworthy as to be surprised that Ned turned out to be an assassin looking to kill us. When he spoke those words, the entire table was shocked into silence and broke into laughter after that. The DM had Ned stab at the player just to assure him that it was indeed Ned and he was not our friend.

 

[Celtavian]

re

Yes.. yes they are spec ops, because now they're part of...

Is it any good? LOL. Finally they're getting right to what adventuring is about.

Adventurers, the spec ops mercenaries of their genre. Who else would be crazy enough to adventure. I often contemplate how insane you would have to be to take up an adventuring career. I came to the conclusion that you would have to be a downright fearless madman to take up adventuring as a career.

Sure, guys like Frodo just get tossed into adventures. But for the mad fools that actually seek it out, to them do I attribute true madness. Just plum fools that choose to live a hard, gritty, dangerous life facing the most fearsome and evil creatures that lurk in the world as a profession.

 

[MerricB]

If I may expand on some of the above points...

4e does in fact have more than encounter powers and healing surges as a way of prolonging expeditions: Magic Items. These items have "daily" powers, but you can only access a limited number of them... but that number increases as you reach more "milestones".

Another interesting point is this: if a character is raised from the dead (as we discovered), they have a penalty to all their checks until they reach three milestones... so, going "nova" for one encounter and then resting is entirely out of the question!

Psions were the worst cause of the 15-minute day, in any case.

Cheers!