The 4e Distribution Model has Failed...

[DEFCON 1]

I'd like to point out a few things you had in your post shadzar, if I may...

I think the failure was inevitable. You set forth to create a new copy of the game each year with the PHB cycle, but neglect to include the previous ones, as you only included the newest info, and update the rules. So to have the "errata" in place, you have to buy the newest books. People don't all want to buy the game again every year.

DDi should give you the errata right away, but you have to pay for it to be in place in the rules.

You can get the errata as a download to hunt through when you come to something, if you remember it while playing.

This has been the case with errata all along to fix mistakes of "we screwed up and meant to write something else." The problem lies in the buying the game every year then to get it.

Failing #1.

Actually... they weren't putting out a new game each year. They were putting out new expansions each year. At no time did anything in Player's Handbook 2 indicate you didn't need Player's Handbook 1 to play. Sure, you might have clueless people who see books 1 & 2 on the shelves and think to themselves "well, I don't need Call of Duty 1 to play Call of Duty 2... so I can just buy Player's Handbook 2 and everything will be fine!"... but I for one would never want WotC to dumb things down so much as to placate that kind of idiot who can't be bothered to look at the book he's buying first.

And as far as your comments on errata... your complaint is that some errata appears in PH2 for PH1 so you have to buy the second book. But since it also appears in the online tools, you have to buy the tools to get it. But since it also appears as a free download... you have to search the website for it, download it, then remember to use it. And somehow, this is WotC's fault? Just what exactly is WotC supposed to do in this situation, short of reprinting the complete PH after each errata cycle and giving it away for free to each person who owns one, or just not bothering to come up with errata at all? Errata exists because it is useful. The fact that you then actually have to use it does not ipso facto mean WotC 'failed'.

Settings, cute and novel approach, but you don't get many people to buy later settings, when they will not be supported is you get a settings once and only once, then it stops. People will start buying the newest settings to try, because they know it has a short lifecycle and then products end for it. Also someone cannot buy the setting from 2 years ago, if it isn't avilable to be bought.

That is failing #2.

This is why we have things like Amazon. Where you can find setting books from one, two, five, ten years ago. And considering WotC printed dozens upon dozens of setting-specific supplement books for Third Edition... is your complaint that they didn't reprint all of these things over again for Fourth Edition? Considering 95% of each of those Forgotten Realms and Eberron books are complete fluff and edition neutral... just how many copies of those things do you think we needed or would have sold had they been produced?

DDI. Failing #3.

People don't want to rent the game, nor have to play it with a computer or always have to be around internet access to be able to play it.

I can pull out the books during a power outages, light some candles, and get new people to try the game. Playing pass the laptop around to try to play while it still has battery charge isnt any way to try to play.

Do you even know what is in DDI? Because everything you write is patently untrue. You don't need a computer to play D&D. Not in the slightest bit. And anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Now you can certainly use a computer to make setting up parts of the game easier. But they are not required. And in fact, there are plenty of people here on ENWorld who do just fine without DDI.

On to Failing #4, board games.

They can be a boon to get people interested in the game, but D&D hasnt ever been a board game, even if it has recently required more board game type of play with focus on grids and maps and tiles. Board games are in no way shape or form D&D or roleplaying games, they are board games. Ravenloft might be a fun board game, but it is still a board game set in the Ravenloft setting as a background, and is not going to be a roleplay game.

HeroQuest is loosely a roleplaying game, but is still just a board game. One that very well introduces MANY roleplaying game elements that can get people into roleplaying, but it is still jsut a board game with the same limitations, unlike an RPG.

So now you're mad that WotC is producing board games that use the mechanics of the roleplaying game. Okay. And I suppose you were mad when video game companies like Bioware used D&D mechanics to produce video games too? Considering that the Ravenloft game doesn't replace the roleplaying game and is merely another game who branding and rules structure is very similar to the roleplaying game... looks to me like you just want to get mad at WotC for no discernable reason.

Your model needs something that everyone will want to buy to try the game, and those that get hooked will want to buy more things after that. Red Box, I wont get started on what I dislike about this, might have been a good idea, had it not came out years too late. It should have been there right when the PHB DMG and MM came out for those wanting to try it, and telling those that liked it if they want more levels, classes, races to get the PHB, DMG and MM, otherwise it was a complete mini-version of D&D.

So failing #5....

...was lack of introductory product and relying on existing customers/players to support the entire new product, that was nothing like had ever existed before which means existing customer/players were not really the target for it and there was nothing in the world to get new people to want to try it at an affordable and non-overwhelming manner.

D&D 4E Starter Set released October 21, 2008

Case closed.

 

[shadzar]

Wizards had that.

I have never heard of that, and sadly I notice the October release date while the rest came out in June? So still then it was too late. You want to bring out the introductory product BEFORE everything else.

The really crazy thing is that you can get a .NET application to run just fine under Mono on both Mac OSX and Linux. So they didn't really gain anything on the compatibility front. Double-fail.

Oh, well I tried to give them a small benefit of doubt....guess I learned my lesson.

 

[shadzar]

I'd like to point out a few things you had in your post shadzar, if I may...



Actually... they weren't putting out a new game each year. They were putting out new expansions each year. At no time did anything in Player's Handbook 2 indicate you didn't need Player's Handbook 1 to play. Sure, you might have clueless people who see books 1 & 2 on the shelves and think to themselves "well, I don't need Call of Duty 1 to play Call of Duty 2... so I can just buy Player's Handbook 2 and everything will be fine!"... but I for one would never want WotC to dumb things down so much as to placate that kind of idiot who can't be bothered to look at the book he's buying first.

And as far as your comments on errata... your complaint is that some errata appears in PH2 for PH1 so you have to buy the second book. But since it also appears in the online tools, you have to buy the tools to get it. But since it also appears as a free download... you have to search the website for it, download it, then remember to use it. And somehow, this is WotC's fault? Just what exactly is WotC supposed to do in this situation, short of reprinting the complete PH after each errata cycle and giving it away for free to each person who owns one, or just not bothering to come up with errata at all? Errata exists because it is useful. The fact that you then actually have to use it does not ipso facto mean WotC 'failed'.

No, I didn't say you have to buy them all, I said where you could get them in all the places they came, none of which worked if you weren't interested in buying DDi, or wanting to buy PHB2, or wanting to flip through printouts to find them. Did they ever make the errata you could print out and glue in PHB1 so it is always there in the same place you go to look for it?

This is why we have things like Amazon. Where you can find setting books from one, two, five, ten years ago. And considering WotC printed dozens upon dozens of setting-specific supplement books for Third Edition... is your complaint that they didn't reprint all of these things over again for Fourth Edition? Considering 95% of each of those Forgotten Realms and Eberron books are complete fluff and edition neutral... just how many copies of those things do you think we needed or would have sold had they been produced?

You don't rely on eBay for to keep your busines running unless you make sales on eBay. All those secondary markets are not osmething you want to think will be able to support you in your business model.

Do you even know what is in DDI? Because everything you write is patently untrue. You don't need a computer to play D&D. Not in the slightest bit. And anyone who tells you otherwise is lying.

Now you can certainly use a computer to make setting up parts of the game easier. But they are not required. And in fact, there are plenty of people here on ENWorld who do just fine without DDI.

Hey look I can be smug also...

Did you know it is possible to play D&D without buying any books with DDi, or if they never did add those missing rules elements, just having the PHB. So everything I said is true for the player(s) that own nothing or just the PHB and rely on DDi for everything else. Have you not see where people have said that without CB they wouldn't play 4th because it is a mes to handle characters. If you want any new material in CB you have to hack a copy of the downloadable version that used to exist to add the material, or subscribe to DDi. Those people who would only play with CB, are ones that need the constant internet connection going and would be renting the game. Heck I have even seen on here, I think, people mentioned that you rent your characters with the new online CB because you lose them when your subscription runs out, and still you cannot acces them without a connection to the internet to run the DDi silverlight ONLINE application.

So now you're mad that WotC is producing board games that use the mechanics of the roleplaying game. Okay. And I suppose you were mad when video game companies like Bioware used D&D mechanics to produce video games too? Considering that the Ravenloft game doesn't replace the roleplaying game and is merely another game who branding and rules structure is very similar to the roleplaying game... looks to me like you just want to get mad at WotC for no discernable reason.

Where in the world do you come up with this stuff? Can I have some of what you are drinking? I didn't say I was mad they are making board games, but the 4th edition distribution model had nothing about board games to begin with. So they changed the model because it had failed, and I am saying this change will not make a new model better. I am not mad at WotC, but getting mad at people who do not take the time to read what I write, and them twist my words around. Well not mad, but totaly ****** off.

You think Ravenloft doesn't replace the RPG, well you are wrong. Start a new thread as to not derail this one, and I will explain it to you.

D&D 4E Starter Set released October 21, 2008

Case closed.

Again....people don't read? October 2008 is NOT, I repeat NOT June 2008.

What we see here is the afterthought. Idea is people will jsut buy the books normally and get new people playing. Then someone says "Oops what about those people that never played a TTRPG before?" So from the time they realized they had no introductory product until it hit the shelves is where they failed. Introductory product either comes out BEFORE or AT THE SAME TIME as the regular product.

They still give out free samples of some things, if you know where to get them in this world. Those samples are sent out for new products before it hits the market to let people try it to be ready to buy it upon its street date.

DDi is in no way shape or form an introductory product as it didnt show much of anything and you couldn't try 4th edition out until much later when part/all of the KotS was put on the site for download.

They had NOTHING for entry level into RPGs for 4th edition at the time of its release.

Or if we want to laugh about it and at them. They released the game during summer break where many "younger" people aren't in school and have free time, but they wait until people are back in school and busy to bring out something to get new people interested.

They and their model FAILED to have the proper products in place at the proper time. Accept it.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Hey, you were the one who were claiming all these things as 'failures' on Wizards' part. I was just pointing out some things that perhaps weren't actually 'failures' but rather things you just didn't like.

No, I didn't say you have to buy them all, I said where you could get them in all the places they came, none of which worked if you weren't interested in buying DDi, or wanting to buy PHB2, or wanting to flip through printouts to find them. Did they ever make the errata you could print out and glue in PHB1 so it is always there in the same place you go to look for it?

I see. So because WotC didn't print the errata in the free downloadable packet in such a way that you could cut each rule out and paste it exactly in the book where it needed to go... WotC 'failed'.

Well, guess what? Someone here on ENWorld (was it Morrus in fact?) just recently attempted to do just that. And the book became so huge it looked to be practically unusable. So what you consider a 'failure'... I consider to be 'unnecessary'.

You don't rely on eBay for to keep your busines running unless you make sales on eBay. All those secondary markets are not osmething you want to think will be able to support you in your business model.

And you also don't reprint your entire back catalog of setting materials under the assumption that because it got bought when it had a 'Third Edition' tag on it, it would do just as well on the market with a 'Fourth Edition' tag on it.

Considering the number of people who decried the 4E releases of the Forgotten Realms campaign books... I have a hard time believing that a 'Dalelands After The Spellplague' sourcebook would have made the money back that they would have spent to produce the thing. Mainly because if it would have... WotC probably would have done it.

Did you know it is possible to play D&D without buying any books with DDi, or if they never did add those missing rules elements, just having the PHB. So everything I said is true for the player(s) that own nothing or just the PHB and rely on DDi for everything else. Have you not see where people have said that without CB they wouldn't play 4th because it is a mes to handle characters. If you want any new material in CB you have to hack a copy of the downloadable version that used to exist to add the material, or subscribe to DDi. Those people who would only play with CB, are ones that need the constant internet connection going and would be renting the game. Heck I have even seen on here, I think, people mentioned that you rent your characters with the new online CB because you lose them when your subscription runs out, and still you cannot acces them without a connection to the internet to run the DDi silverlight ONLINE application.

But see... you're changing your original point. Your original statement said you had to constantly have internet access and 'pass the laptop around' in order to play the game. Both of which ARE patently untrue.

Yes, you need internet access to create a character in the Character Builder, and then print your character sheet once you're done. After that though... NO INTERNET NEEDED. Once your character is printed, you can go whereever the heck you want and play D&D with no problems and no connection. And on top of that, at NO POINT do you need to share a laptop, because the game is NOT PLAYED on a computer. It's played with minis on a gridded board... so us 4E players can do just as fine as you non-4Eers when the power goes out.

Where in the world do you come up with this stuff? Can I have some of what you are drinking? I didn't say I was mad they are making board games, but the 4th edition distribution model had nothing about board games to begin with. So they changed the model because it had failed, and I am saying this change will not make a new model better. I am not mad at WotC, but getting mad at people who do not take the time to read what I write, and them twist my words around. Well not mad, but totaly ****** off.

You think Ravenloft doesn't replace the RPG, well you are wrong. Start a new thread as to not derail this one, and I will explain it to you.

If you want to try and explain how the Ravenloft boardgame has replaced the Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game, I'd love to hear it. Considering the board game was released at the end of August, but yet the D&D Essentials line was released the month AFTER that... leads me to believe you might be overstating things a little here. I find it difficult to imagine WotC would go through the effort of putting together the 10 Essentials products if Castle Ravenloft was really the direction they intended to go.

Again....people don't read? October 2008 is NOT, I repeat NOT June 2008.

What we see here is the afterthought. Idea is people will jsut buy the books normally and get new people playing. Then someone says "Oops what about those people that never played a TTRPG before?" So from the time they realized they had no introductory product until it hit the shelves is where they failed. Introductory product either comes out BEFORE or AT THE SAME TIME as the regular product.

They still give out free samples of some things, if you know where to get them in this world. Those samples are sent out for new products before it hits the market to let people try it to be ready to buy it upon its street date.

DDi is in no way shape or form an introductory product as it didnt show much of anything and you couldn't try 4th edition out until much later when part/all of the KotS was put on the site for download.

They had NOTHING for entry level into RPGs for 4th edition at the time of its release.

Or if we want to laugh about it and at them. They released the game during summer break where many "younger" people aren't in school and have free time, but they wait until people are back in school and busy to bring out something to get new people interested.

They and their model FAILED to have the proper products in place at the proper time. Accept it.

So because the Starter Set was released three months after the first set of hardcovers, WotC 'failed'. Okay. Fine. So be it. What we're seeing now in the cancellation of these three books is a direct result of the Starter Set not being released part and parcel with the first three hardcovers.

Of course, I could point out that the very first thing 4E related that got published was the Keep on the Shadowfell module which included inside of it basic and simple rules on how to play the 4E game... but I guess all those new kids who needed to learn how to play skipped over that one and went straight to the hardcovers and then got themselves hopelessly lost. And because of that, D&D 4E is in dire straights. Sure. Could have happened.

 

[shadzar]

Hey, you were the one who were claiming all these things as 'failures' on Wizards' part. I was just pointing out some things that perhaps weren't actually 'failures' but rather things you just didn't like.

No, I see you just trying to pick a fight of sorts with me, since you didn't reply to other posts before mine that mentioned some of the same things, such as the opening post of the thread in regards to "PHB every year" portion of their model. So this is where it ends.