The 6 Ability-Score Saving Throw varient

[Nyaricus]

What do you folks think about using all 6 standard ability scores for Saving Throws? I think this will help game balance (not overrating 3/6 ability scores) and that, frankly, it makes sense. Perhaps using the two scores added together and divided by two would also further ensure game balance.

As follows:

Fortitude = Strength + Constitution/2
Reflex = Dexterity + Intelligence/2
Will = Wisdom + Charisma/2

what do you think?

 

[dvvega]

I've thought of doing something along the lines of using all of the abilities ... however firstly comments on your idea.

You will definately make saving throws harder ... for some classes.

Assume most characters max out their prime attribute and dump a 10 or 12 into others. For a Rogue, Intelligence isn't something they need much of (they get enough skill points). So with an 18 DEX and a 12 INT, they will be receiving a +2 on their Reflex Save (d20 rounds down). This is from a +4.

However a Fighter generally tanks Strength and Constitution so you will find that they suffer very little.

Wizards suddenly are as good at Reflex as Rogues (not a normal thing) since the stats would be generally reversed.

So in some cases you're reducing their modifier by 50%.


I always thought that there should have been 6 saving throws (one for each ability) but as you go through d20 you note that almost everything falls under CON/WIS/DEX for saves. There are few situations that need the other stats. Of course you could just make a blanket statement that saving throws are just attack rolls against the AC of the effect. Thus every ability applys itself to some such roll except for INT and CHA.

D

 

[harperscout]

Interesting variant... I agree that you are really going to be messing with saving throws for some classes. The rogue, as mentioned, is going to take a hit to his reflex save.

Are you rounding up or down?

Another thing this does is make the CHA score more important... that is something else that makes this mechanic useful.

 

[silvermane]

What about having three additional types of saves tied to Intelligence, Strength and Charisma?

 

[Nyeshet]

I already do something like this:

Con. . . Fortitude save (Fort)
Str . . . Endurance save (Endr)
Dex. . . Reflex save (Refl)
Cha. . . Will save (Will)
Wis. . . Perception save (Prcp)
Wis. . . Sanity save (Snty)

Int: bonus skill points

In addition, each ability has associated skills except Con* - which grants bonus hp, so it all works out, more or less. *(The will save replaces concentration.)

Fortitude deals with Disease, Poison, Hunger, Thirst, Suffocation, etc.
Endurance deals with prolonged activities, heat, chill, etc.
Reflex deals with evading sudden dangers, etc.
Will deals with Charms, Compulsions, etc.
Perception deals with Illusions, etc.
Sanity deals with Fear, Horror, Madness (similar to the rules in Ravenloft).

I also sometimes use Perception for other purposes. If, for instance, the PC starts acting in absense of knowledge that should be obvious to their character, I ask for a Perception check (an intuitive hunch, regarding what they should already know). I suppose you could consider it the character's intuition - or common sense.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Somehow, this isn't setting in properly. I can't see how Strenght would affect aFortitude save or Intelligence a Reflex save. It just doesn't make sense to me. It wouldn't be something that I would be happy with if it surfaced in a future edition of the game.

 

[Bront]

I don't care for it. I don't like the idea of averaging the 2 stats (It would be the only mechanic of it's kind, and that's something to avoid)/

I don't like the Nyeshet's idea either. Among other things, it means Intelegence is almost never going to get a natural boost after 1st level (The every 4 level increases), since you don't get skill points retroactively, and every other stat now has a mechanical reason for the increase that has some benifit. Also, I don't like using Strength for a save by itself, it's already important, and Con is better for Endurance anyway.

Keep in mind, low charisma should have an RP effect. A lower charisma character should be occasionaly off-putting, shouldn't nescessarily be leading from a lack of force of personality, and/or might be physicaly offputting. A low charisma character whould be fairly blunt, or perhaps have an offsetting voice, or quiet, or something to distinguish him from a higher charisma person. So, Charisma should have several in game effects, just not all of them will be mechanical.

 

[ARandomGod]

Interesting, and a good attempt to make all the abilities balanced.

Personally, I've always left it alone in my games. But I have done some theory on how I personally would change the saves...

Somehow, this isn't setting in properly. I can't see how Strenght would affect a Fortitude save or Intelligence a Reflex save. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Well, strength could affect some fort saves by, umm... well, some fort saves are really endurance saves, to see how long you can keep running, etc. Of course, some are to resist pain, and that seems more of a mental save to me. But at least there's some justification for that one.

Intelligence a Reflex save. First off, there's precident. There is already a feat that allows one to substitute intelligence for dex in making reflex saves. I suppose the thought is that you're smart, and better prepared. Of course, really, Wisdom makes more sense than Intel for reflex saves. Wisdom is about perception, it's the skill I'd use for subliminally 'sensing' and being able to react to things that you didn't expect.

Which leads on to my point, how I personally handled the "Ability point balance" in relation to saves.

In short, I left it with three scores affecting saves, but moved them around. Fort staying on Con. Reflex moving to Wisdom, and Willpower moving to Charisma. More text on the subject below:

First of all I left the Fort save on Con. Con doesn't do much else, it's just HP and Fort.

Strength is already awesome, it doesn't need you to add anything else in, and I agree that in general it doesn't seem to apply much to Fort saves or any other save (possibly to endurance based fort saves, but even that is better off in Con IMO.

Dex, another very very good ability. I think that, like strength, it doesn't 'need' the added Reflex save in order to be a good, strong ability. Plus in many ways Reflex saves to Dex doesn't make sense. You get a reflex save when you're flatfooted, when you're surprised by things. How does a strong dex allow you to react to things you don't notice (ok, I get the current justification that it helps you react faster when you finally do get around to noticing). So I moved the Reflex save to where I think it really belongs. Wisdom. The perception ability. Wisdom is about sensing things, a sixth sense "reflex" save makes the most sense here. Having fast reactions doesn't let you react to a blade you didn't know was there in combat (flat-footed), so why should it help you react to one from a trap? And how did it let you know that THAT area is the one area in a fireball to be less affected??

Wisdom. Well, As stated above I've given it the reflex save. At this point it certainly doesn't need two saves. Move that Willpower save outa there! Willpower doesn't even make sense on wisdom anymore. Wisdom is about perception. How does 'percieving' that you're mentally dominated make it easier to have the force of personality to escape? Hell, even the dullest fighters (or of sorcs) know what's happening to them, they just don't know how to escape.

Force of personality. Charisma. I move the Will save onto Charisma. If any ability needed boosting, this is the one! Put the willpower save here and every ability has something to offer. Plus it makes the most sense, with the Lore as it is. This is supposedly the ability Sorcs use to force the world to react to their will, but people can't even use it to force themselves to react to their own will? What's with that?

This will also have some effects on the scores. Fighters stay pretty much the same, with perhaps the high dex fighters losing a lot of reflex saves... Rogues lose out on some power, but if they're charismatic rogues they get better will saves. Sorc's willpower saves go through the roof, but I don't really see a problem with that.

The most major effect that I see is that it strengthens clerics in an interesting way, and they're already arguably the strongest class in the game. However... I don't really have a lot of people wanting to play clerics, so I haven't seen the 'cleric munchkin' that so many have spotted out there. So that's a non-issue in the games I run or play in.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Hmmm... while I'm not crazy about the averaging of stats for the save categories, I do like the idea of having a separate category for each stat, and have thought about doing something similar for a long time. In fact, that's what I thought Nyaricus was talking about when I saw the thread title.

Part of this stems from my dislike for the 'attribute check' concept in the game. It seems silly to me that as a fighter (for example) goes up in level, he becomes able to shrug off increasingly virulent poisons of mythological monsters and magical attempts to actually shapechange his body, but at 20th level he has just about the same chance to bust down a freakin' door as a first level dude (maybe a slightly better chance due to stat increases, but still...)

I mean, isn't a Reflex save against a fireball really just a specialized Dex check? Isn't a Fortitude save against poison just a special Constitution check?

And having a Str Save instead of a Str check would mean pesky, DM-headache spells like Web would become more relatively effective, with creatures having a chance overcome it at the same ratio as other spells compared to their level.

Nyeshet's idea of making Will saves based on Cha is excellent, removing it's status as a dump stat. Specifying Wis for illusions and such is also a good call.

Of course, such a change in the system would have some ripple effects in the Skill system, which still allows straight attribute checks for skills with no ranks (and usable untrained.) I'm sure there's some methods of tweaking that, though, to make it not completely break the system.

 

[mosaic]

I've been thinkinh about the 6 different save thing myself. Seems to me that the difference between saves and ability checks is that saves are reflexive, something you do without thinking.

That seems to work with the three existig saves:
Con = Fortitude - endurance, health, etc.
Dex = Reflex - quick dodges and getting out of the way
Wis = Will - resisting mind control

So what would they be for the other three?
Str = some kind of reflexie use of strength, maybe not dropping something or not getting knocked over - Grip? Steadiness?
Int = reflexive thinking ... Memory? Recognition?
Cha = this is the hardest one because Charisma is kind of a grabbag ability ...
possibility 1: go with the social aspect. it might be interesting to have some kind of roll to determine the kind of First Impression PCs make on other people.
possibility 2: go with the 'force of personality' aspect and move Will down here. Then you could actually use the Wisdom save for something tied to perception, like a Surpirse save. That might actually make sense. Using Spot and Listen versus somebody's attept to surprise never sat well with me because listening and spotting seem more like active attepts to notice something. Not getting surpised is more of a perceptive reflex, and maybe better suited to a saving throw than a skill check.

Just some thoughts, hardly polished or fine tuned. But, as always, I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on the subject.