"The aim is for the players to have fun"

[Omegaxicor]

@pemerton I thought I had but maybe not enough... I'll try that but I think it will end with the same as is mentioned in DMG, "if they think you are only including their loved ones to later threaten them they may not appreciate the benefits of having them around" or something like that...

@Neonchameleon I'm not trying to kill their characters, the difference between killing the BBEG in one hit and getting decimated by his minions is one of the dice rolling high (or even average) but they don't... are we supposed to play a game where one or all of the PCs get captured every adventure? (well, almost every adventure obviously) that might be an entirely different sort of game, one neither of us enjoy, or where new characters are made like Druids / Monks / Sorcerers where they don't need equipment so that when they are captured they don't lose any stuff

 

[Sunseeker]

@pemerton I thought I had but maybe not enough... I'll try that but I think it will end with the same as is mentioned in DMG, "if they think you are only including their loved ones to later threaten them they may not appreciate the benefits of having them around" or something like that...

@Neonchameleon I'm not trying to kill their characters, the difference between killing the BBEG in one hit and getting decimated by his minions is one of the dice rolling high (or even average) but they don't... are we supposed to play a game where one or all of the PCs get captured every adventure? (well, almost every adventure obviously) that might be an entirely different sort of game, one neither of us enjoy, or where new characters are made like Druids / Monks / Sorcerers where they don't need equipment so that when they are captured they don't lose any stuff

First off: Adventuring is like being a super-hero. You don't wear the mask to protect yourself, you wear the mask to protect the ones you love. It's good character development and RP when players realize that even their non-adventuring actions can have very serious consequences. Even if their reaction to those consequences is "I refuse to love anyone ever again!" that's still good! Those are the kind of players who may still become attached to developed and interesting NPCs. Now you don't have to universally use every single one of their loved ones against them, it may happen to Bob at first, and then maybe Joan later, possibly Frank last. It will work for some players, and it won't work for others, it's up to the DM to develop plot-hooks that catch the players.

Secondly: getting captured doesn't necessarily mean the loss of everything a player holds dear. It might mean they lose their weapons and are locked in an anti-magic cell. Having a BBEG doesn't necessarily mean he's a genre-savvy villain, so he probably still relies on stupid henchmen who don't think things though and has a sexy counterpart who really has a soft-spot for the hero.

Failure can mean a lot of things. It can mean losing your gear, it can mean losing loved ones, it can me failing to accomplish a given task, it can mean being beaten within an inch of their lives or even to death. Generally a villain appears not because he wants to battle the hero, but because he wants to accomplish some other goal, which the hero shows up to thwart. Few villains make the sound and reasonable decision to kill the hero, they just beat them up and toss them in a river and go back to what they were doing. That is also failure.

Perhaps then the heroes are found by a small fishing village downstream, who nurse them back to health. The Villain, his goal now accomplished, realized he should have killed the heroes and goes searching after them, destroying everything in his path. The village now falls into the category of "loved ones" who may or may not be destroyed by the BBEG.

"kill or capture" are not necessarily the only options for failure that leave your players breathing. Sometimes failure just means the odds were against them.

 

[Neonchameleon]

First off: Adventuring is like being a super-hero. You don't wear the mask to protect yourself, you wear the mask to protect the ones you love. It's good character development and RP when players realize that even their non-adventuring actions can have very serious consequences.

This. And to bring up a related point, there has only ever been one good Superman computer game I know of. Most of them give Superman a health bar. The good one didn't. It gave Metropolis a health bar. To get that to work you have to get the players to care about the NPCs - and to know that they aren't just traps.

Honestly, I'd try at least reading if not actually running somehting like Leverage, MHRP, or Spirit of the Century. Something other than D&D and where death isn't normally on the line - it doesn't prevent roleplaying.

 

[pemerton]

I'd try at least reading if not actually running somehting like Leverage, MHRP, or Spirit of the Century. Something other than D&D and where death isn't normally on the line - it doesn't prevent roleplaying.

Along these lines, I can strongly recommend the Burning Wheel Adventure Burner as an excellent GM's guide even for someone not GMing Burning Wheel.

 

[pemerton]

I think it will end with the same as is mentioned in DMG, "if they think you are only including their loved ones to later threaten them they may not appreciate the benefits of having them around" or something like that

That's a reasonable concern. Make any initial subsequent threat easy to deal with, perhaps. Or make the threat a non-violent one: maybe it's the forging of a deed by a rival to cheat the loved one out of their property, for example (that's more of a western than a fantasy trope, but D&D is pretty genre-inclusive!).

 

[Sunseeker]

This. And to bring up a related point, there has only ever been one good Superman computer game I know of. Most of them give Superman a health bar. The good one didn't. It gave Metropolis a health bar. To get that to work you have to get the players to care about the NPCs - and to know that they aren't just traps.

Which Superman game was that? I've admittedly played few super-hero games.

Honestly, I'd try at least reading if not actually running somehting like Leverage, MHRP, or Spirit of the Century. Something other than D&D and where death isn't normally on the line - it doesn't prevent roleplaying.

It really isn't your butt that most adventurers end up fighting for anyway, most of the events adventurers end up dealing with(at least later in game) are world-affecting issues. You may be in it for your personal glory, but at the end of the day, you still saved the world.

 

[Omegaxicor]

I haven't played that Superman game either but I understand the idea and I think I like it, I just worry my players will start to become cold-hearted but that might be a fun campaign (although it inexorably leads to an Evil campaign)

 

[Quickleaf]

I think that the issue is 1) the players die too often, I will have to look into that 2) the characters are not valued, which may be because they die a lot or it is their playstyle which might be a problem

Well, regardless of whether high lethality is the chicken or the egg, you're not the first DM to want High Drama and to run a game with a bunch of Beer n' Pretzels guys (if that is indeed what's happening). Consider, though, that they'd rather be spending an evening with you and their chums pretending to be elves and wizards rather than something else. No matter how Beer n' Pretzels they seem, I've found most role players really enjoy contributing to an ongoing story with all the fantasy trappings. I have a fairly diverse gaming group with different styles, and I've learned to focus on our big commonalities rather than our little differences.

Anyhow, with your situation...I'm getting my gamer spidey sense that all is not as it appears Can you say a little more about your gaming group and game?

 

[Omegaxicor]

I really don't know what to say to that...erm, 5 of us, two fighter-types, a Wizard, a Rogue and me, healing is taken care of by potions and items although not very effectively apparently The world is custom made. Humans have dominated the world (they basically live everywhere), just like Halflings and Gnomes. Elves are mostly forestry and live off the land, some wander the land as do dwarves who live in mountain strongholds and have tunnelled too deeply into the Underdark, causing raids on the surface world. Orcs and Goblins are subterranean creatures that once ruled the surface but were beaten back by an alliance of Humans, Elves and Dwarves.

Can't think of anything else really...I have probably missed something important

 

[Neonchameleon]

I really don't know what to say to that...erm, 5 of us, two fighter-types, a Wizard, a Rogue and me, healing is taken care of by potions and items although not very effectively apparently The world is custom made. Humans have dominated the world (they basically live everywhere), just like Halflings and Gnomes. Elves are mostly forestry and live off the land, some wander the land as do dwarves who live in mountain strongholds and have tunnelled too deeply into the Underdark, causing raids on the surface world. Orcs and Goblins are subterranean creatures that once ruled the surface but were beaten back by an alliance of Humans, Elves and Dwarves.Can't think of anything else really...I have probably missed something important

What's a common session/plot? Politics? Fighting off orcs? Scamming them into raiding goblins? Hunting the Lost Sceptre of McGuffin? The world doesn't matter half as much as the way the PCs interact with it.