The "alien mindset" of a race

[Umbra]

I don't have it handy but I'm fairly sure that the GURP's David Brin's Uplift supplement had a chapter on playing alien races with a list of characteristic continuums (eg xenophobic to xenophile) you could use to guide rollplay.

 

[Incenjucar]

An absolute, physical proof that no matter what you do in this world, the only afterlife that exists is an infinity of hell being tortured and used as fuel by entities beyond comprehension, with escape being mathematically impossible.

In fact, thanks to supernatural perception, you get to watch it happen to the holy man of your choice, in person, as he turns inside out and his soul is flayed and so on and so on. Then the entities look at you and tell you they know exactly when you are going to die, and they bring your own spirit from the future so you can watch yourself scream and burn.

And so on.

1) I'm an atheist, as such:

2) Watching a 'Holy Man' of my choice being tortued horribly would be more amusing than watching Passion of Christ -- I could just quip up "Falwell!"

3) I've had Christians tell me that such already IS my fate all my life, so I'm not really impressed. It's a fear-enducing concept, but not maddening, nor remotely alien. It just sucks. Huge dif.

 

[Snoweel]

And so your response is to get to this hellish afterlife ASAP as opposed to, say, trying to extend your life as much as possible? Gimme a break.

Ok, so it'd frighten me, but I'm not going to lose my brain just because I know the afterlife is bad.

How do you know?

The point is, you don't know what the afterlife is like or if there even is one so you haven't lost your mind dealing with the hypotheticals you've so far encountered.

But suppose you were faced with absolute proof. None of us can say how we'd react, but it's a fair bet that our reaction would be different to anything we've ever experienced before.

1) I'm an atheist, as such:

2) Watching a 'Holy Man' of my choice being tortued horribly would be more amusing than watching Passion of Christ -- I could just quip up "Falwell!"

3) I've had Christians tell me that such already IS my fate all my life, so I'm not really impressed. It's a fear-enducing concept, but not maddening, nor remotely alien. It just sucks. Huge dif.

This adds to the discusson how?

I understand why someone like you would come to the internet to rail against your favourite oppressors but really, it just makes you look petty.

Stop it.

 

[Sejs]

A picture of Wilford Brimley in a G-string.

As long as it's not a picture of Wilford Brimley in a g-string eatting a bowl of pudding, I'd be okay with it.

Anyway - the problem with asking for examples of an unknowable (or destabilizing, take your pick) concept is it's like trying to prove a negative. An example can't be provided, because if the provider knew one, he'd be aware of it, therefor mad, therefor unable to provide the example. Likewise, someone would be unable to recieve the example, because if they did they'd break and thus be unable to recognise the example.

How many philosophers spinning in their graves does it take to screw in a lightbulb?


The heart of the discussion, however, isn't "can something be so alien that we cannot in any way conceptualize it?" - sure, why not. Infinite universe and all, but if we can't conceptualize it, there's nothing we can do. Unstoppable forces and immovable objects - just leave it be.

The heart of the discussion is "How can we portray, in a believeable manner, something that lies outside of our frame of reference without just handwaving our way thru things and taking the easy way out?"

 

[CyberSpyder]

But suppose you were faced with absolute proof. None of us can say how we'd react, but it's a fair bet that our reaction would be different to anything we've ever experienced before.

The problem with this, of course, is that absolute proofs do not exist outside the realm of mathematics. There are only greater and lesser degrees of evidence. Thus, the notion of a mind collapsing upon being faced with such an absolute proof is patently impossible - all that could happen would be to be faced with extremely good evidence, and if it was evidence of an absolutely unacceptable thing, a more likely reaction, at least among humanlike creatures, would be to get to work disproving it.

 

[Incenjucar]

How do you know?

The point is, you don't know what the afterlife is like or if there even is one so you haven't lost your mind dealing with the hypotheticals you've so far encountered.

But suppose you were faced with absolute proof. None of us can say how we'd react, but it's a fair bet that our reaction would be different to anything we've ever experienced before.



This adds to the discusson how?

I understand why someone like you would come to the internet to rail against your favourite oppressors but really, it just makes you look petty.

Stop it.

I was replying to a post to note that I do not feel that the examples are 'madness-inducingly' horrific she or he posted were that big a deal, and explained why so as to make it understood why. What does YOUR post have to do with the topic, other than harassing another poster because you have a stick up your arse about something?

Stop it.

---

Agreed, Sejs. It's not really answerable. But in that, it makes it annoying when a source, like, again, the Far Realms stuff, says "It's so crazy it makes YOU crazy!". Without a decent explanation like, say, sensory overload or synaptic static, it becomes a really nasty "Smile and nod" situation. Of course, there -are- ways to give most players a headache, but I wager it's harder to write/tell of than to imagine... and most of them are just contradictions.

 

[CyberSpyder]

I was replying to a post to note that I do not feel that the examples are 'madness-inducingly' horrific she or he posted were that big a deal, and explained why so as to make it understood why. What does YOUR post have to do with the topic, other than harassing another poster because you have a stick up your arse about something?

Stop it.

No, though I'm on your side of the debate, the whole "hey guys I'm an atheist and I couldn't care less about your crazy wackoness lol religion is crazy" thing is a little childish. That's what he was responding to.

 

[Anabstercorian]

Speaking of Far Realms (and keeping in mind it's 1:53 in the morning, so I am in the perfect mindset for this), let me explain why it breaks your brain:

It doesn't break your brain. It fixes it.

Comprehending the Far Realms completely is a total paradigm shift from what humanity is normally used to. It requires the ability to deal with the fact that that 'the present' actually extends a good four or five seconds in to the past and future simultaneously, and that there are in fact six directions that humans normally don't work with. As you enter this broader metaspace that all creation rests in, your brain is torn between two paradigms - the limited paradigm of your home reality, and the limitless paradigm of the All.

If you fail the will save, your mind does not successfully cling to its delusions about the nature of reality and instead is forced to accept what Is - that reality is boundless, governed by rules that you never before imagined. the All grants this knowledge to you.

People don't take this knowledge well. Generally, they kind of freak out - though their world retains value in their minds, they are forced to accept that their usual definitions of 'meaning' are really quite subjective. Even when they adapt, they react to things as Far Realms logic - REAL world logic - dictates, as opposed to reacting to things within the limited paradigm of their home reality. As a result, they appear not only sort of mad, not just KIND of mad, but so utterly disjoint with reality as to be irretrievably damaged. In fact, they are utterly IN SYNC with reality, and if left to their own devices in the Far Realm, would be quite capable of reacting to its events in a logical manner - though they still might get eaten by something better at it than they are and bigger than them.

 

[Sejs]

This adds to the discusson how?

I understand why someone like you would come to the internet to rail against your favourite oppressors but really, it just makes you look petty.

Stop it.

*ahem*

Let's keep things civil, shall we? We're all reasonable human beings and we all recognise that people are entitled to to have differences in oppinion. Let's move ahead.



SO on an unrelated note: what's the deal with Incomprehensible Horrors from Beyond the Gulf of Reason all having tentacles? I mean every last frickin one of 'em... tentacles! For the love of Eris, WHY ALWAYS WITH THE TENTACLES?!

 

[Incenjucar]

No, though I'm on your side of the debate, the whole "hey guys I'm an atheist and I couldn't care less about your crazy wackoness lol religion is crazy" thing is a little childish. That's what he was responding to.

I assure you, if I feel the need to make fun of religion, I know where to go. I was noting that I was used to the notion that I was intended to be tortured for all eternity. I'm sorry that people feel this was some sort of personal attack, but I honestly don't -care- enough about what others think to be actively trying to make them feel bad. Let's not make a mountain of a mole hill, eh? If there's a concern, try a private message along the lines of "You may want to be a little less blunt..." etc etc etc. Dragging a thread off topic is, I'd wager, along the lines of what I've been accused of.

Now, if anyone has any further gripe, keep it private, so we can get back to this, eh?

---

To that, Anabaster, I add what I feel are the logical problems of that:

What's to say that a human will be unable to handle -both- notions? While I can easily see the Far Realms causing some serious brain damage from sensory overload, which itself could account for the 'madness', but if someone could handle one or the other, why not both? It's akin to how gamers can comprehend D&D logic and real world logic at the same time, albeit at a lesser scale.