The "Anti-Villain"?

[jdrakeh]

Nah, that's not the Anti-Villain, that's just a hero with really, really bad luck.

An Anti-Villain would be the summary of the Opposing Good Guy. The enemy that truly seeks to do good, but is so dedicated to their cause that they are willing to perform lesser, necessary evils in the interest of their greater good.

They will march to war, kill innocents, betray allies and so on, so long as it furthers what they believe to be their laudable cause.

Agreed. An "Anti-Villain" must still be a villain (intenitonally). I think what the OP has described is the Tragic Hero (as somebody else suggested). To this end, there is no better example than Jason.

 

[Felix]

Agreed. An "Anti-Villain" must still be a villain (intenitonally). I think what the OP has described is the Tragic Hero (as somebody else suggested). To this end, there is no better example than Jason.

A Hero is a Hero. An Anti-Hero, while a scoundrel, is still a Hero.

Similarly, an Anti-Villain must still be a villain, and that doesn't quite cover the Tragic Hero. Perhaps that's what I described, but as I said, I think my initial definition was lacking.

And while we're at it, what's a Tragic Villain?

 

[S'mon]

If you think how the WW2 German general Manfred Rommel was commonly thought of by the British who opposed him, I'd say there was a good anti-villain. Maybe Robert E Lee as thought of by the US Civil War Union forces, likewise.

 

[Simplicity]

I think another example might be Spike from Buffy (towards the end of the series).
Starts as a villain. Has a conversion. Finds it difficult to achieve forgiveness even in the face of good deeds.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

I believe the center of the entire Anti-Villian idea is the difference between an opponent and an enemy. People like Gen. Rommel, and Gen. Lee are opponents, you fight them because there simply isn't any other way it has to be done, but that doesn't reflect on them personally. Their personal honor is to great to hate them, even though you are trying to kill them and wreck their plans you still have to respect them for who they are and their capabilities. An enemy on the other hand is beyond respect or honor, they are like a bug to be crushed and you're almost certain to hate them given some time.

 

[smootrk]

Take a Paladin who is dedicated to fighting wrong-doers, establishing Law & Order and the like, who believes whole-heartedly that subjugating a population with extreme religious law (no offense meant, but like what many westerners believe some very extreme religious zealots overseas' version of religious law is like... trying to be PC here, on request), surrender of most personal freedoms, and the elimination of any opposition that may upset this 'holy' plan - is all necessary to achieve the goal.

It may even be deity ordained by some being who is a little more concerned with Law over the 'good' aspect of alignment. It could be part of the whole LAW vs. CHAOS struggle, with the whole good vs evil thing on the backburner.

 

[jdrakeh]

Similarly, an Anti-Villain must still be a villain, and that doesn't quite cover the Tragic Hero.

That was my point above. You seem to be asking for examples of people who aren't villains, but are merely perceived as villains (i.e., people with good intentions who are widely reviled unjustly). That's pretty much the archetypcial Tragic Hero. Not a true villain. So, is this what you're looking for or are you looking for actual villains (i.e., people with some truly horrible intentions) with a pleasant demeanor?

Honestly, you've got examples coming from all over the spectrum here -- some people are giving you examples of tragic heroes, others are giving you simple anatagonists without villainous motives, and still others are giving you examples of polite evil doers. What do you mean when you say "Anti-Villian"?

An "Anti-Hero" is commonly defined as an individual who performs heroic deeds, though breaks from the romatic ideals that the public expects heroes to project during the execution of said deeds. Conversely, a true "Anti-Villain" would be somebody who performs villainous deeds, but fails to exhibit archetypical "bad" behavior when doing so.

I don't think that somebody performing good deeds that are merely perceived as villainous would qualify as a true villain and, therefore, wouldn't qualify for the "Anti-Villain" status (either). Similarly, a hero who starts out to do good but unintentionally does evil would not be a true villain, either (and, again, would therefore fail to qualify for the "Anti-Villain" status).

So. . . ah. . . for the purposes of this thread, what did you mean when you said "Anti-Villain"?

 

[Plane Sailing]

In the Kane story 'Cold Light' by Karl Edward Wagner, the main villain is a crusading guy whose end justifies the means approach takes him further and further into villainy. In the story Kane is the vile villain who is being hunted by the 'good hero'... yet the way things pan out is exactly reversed.

 

[S'mon]

I believe the center of the entire Anti-Villian idea is the difference between an opponent and an enemy. People like Gen. Rommel, and Gen. Lee are opponents, you fight them because there simply isn't any other way it has to be done, but that doesn't reflect on them personally. Their personal honor is to great to hate them, even though you are trying to kill them and wreck their plans you still have to respect them for who they are and their capabilities. An enemy on the other hand is beyond respect or honor, they are like a bug to be crushed and you're almost certain to hate them given some time.

Good point. If an anti-villain is someone you hate rather than see as an honorable opponent, but who lacks typical villain qualities, that implies a character like Miko, or the scientist who creates 'Adam' in Buffy 4th season - characters motivated by 'Good', but who for one reason or another we strongly dislike, just as we like the anti-hero despite his flaws. Religious & political differences can generate such characters; say freedom-loving CG rebel heroes vs haughty aristocrat LG knights, or fashionably tormented vampire heroes vs devout religious Inquisitors who want to destroy them.

 

[Felix]

So. . . ah. . . for the purposes of this thread, what did you mean when you said "Anti-Villain"?

The purpose was to figure out what an Anti-Villain was.

I mean, if I had been satisfied with my own answer, then I wouldn't have asked you.

You seem to be asking for examples of people who aren't villains, but are merely perceived as villains

Assume that there is an objective Truth, and Heroes are Good, and Villains are Evil. Where then does that put Anti-Heroes and Anti-Villains, from the objective Truth point of view?

And once you have that answer, relax the objective Truth assumption and what becomes?

(no offense meant, but like what many westerners believe Islamic Law is like)

Similarly, no offense meant, but this is a temptation to digress into a conversation not suitable for the boards; would you mind editing it out please? It is a talk about fantasy settings after all, so let's keep it there.