The "Anti-Villain"?

[Pozatronic]

When I first started reading this thread, Black Adam from DC comics came to mind, especially his actions during the 52 series. I kinda of want to agree with Simplicity, when he stated Tyrion Lannister; but I never saw him as a villian. I think if we're going to be using the words Hero and Villian or any derivative thereof, you need to be stating it in a morally "Black" and "White" (or 4 color) setting, where there is a clear difference between "Good" and "Evil". I think, morally speaking, GRRM's novels are way too "gray" to call anybody good or evil. We all hated Jamie Lannister those first two books, didn't we.....

Oh, somebody else said Ozymandias(spelling?) from the Watchmen. I think that's a fine example of an Anti-Villian.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The anti-villain is the converse of the anti-hero (i.e., an individual who pursues a noble goal, though often employs ignoble means to reach it). As such, the anti-villain pursues undeniably villanous goals, but employs arguably noble methods to achieve them. Ultimately, it's the primary motivation that differentiates the anti-hero from the anti-villain.

This is The Correct Definition, I think.

This means that Miko isn't really an anti-villain, but Belkar most definately is. Belkar isn't anti-heroic, he doesn't do good things in a shady way, he does *bad* things in a heroic way. Like a serial killer that only kills the bad people (but who does it because he loves to kill) or a vampire who only drains blood from those the townsfolk hate (but do it because he loves him some mortalblood), they're not good guys, they're bad guys who do noble things.

On the other side of this, a character such as Miko is actually somewhat anti-heroic. She pursues good ends, but in ways that get in the way of doing good. She wants to help everyone, but does it in a very dickish way, much like the gruff law enforcer or the shady homeless man with a heart o' gold.

The knight who shows honor is a good anti-villain archetype: he's defending the Necromancer King, he's kicking puppies on the weekends, he's seeking the destruction of the world, but he still will not fight an unarmed battle. He will give you a sword...and he is very, very evil.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Magneto, in certain portrayals.

Beat me to it. Yes, I think Magneto is the poster boy for the Anti-Villain. Quite possibly the only one (I have been racking my brain and can't think of anyone else.)

[EDIT- Thought of one.]

Thinking about it more, I think that Gerald Tarrant, from CS Friedman's Coldfire trilogy, would also be in the same category- gray area as it is. Tarrant is a man who was one of the greatest figures in his planet's history for achievements on behalf of mankind, but who deliberately committed acts of villainy and essentially sold his soul for eternal life largely out of a sense of vanity, but also that he might continue his researches and achievements for mankind. He did indeed manage to accomplish many wondrous things (such as the eventual creation of a "true" horse like those back on Earth), however his pacts with evil forces required him to continue to prey on humanity, and kept him from being able to share his achievements with them.

Throughout the series, up until the end, he struggles with his need to remain true to his evil nature, but his sense of self-preservation and necessity forces him to do essentially good things (until, eventually, his good side does come back to the fore in the end).

Another one I thought of is the most recent depictions of Baron Zemo (Marvel comics). He has committed many acts of villainy in the pursuit of a higher good, because he feels he is the only one suited to make those choices. His goal is to save the world by ruling it.

 

[Stone Dog]

My definitions?

An anti-hero is a protagonist without any heroic qualities. Belkar is my anti-hero. He is on my side, but that doesn't change the fact that he is an evil little bastard. He doesn't even appear to WANT to do good things. Malus Darkblade is another. Rincewind is a third. Wolverine doesn't really count because he really does have a heart of gold under all that gruff. He (and other "ends justify the means" main characters) fall under Dark Hero in my book.

The anti-villain would be an antagonist without any villainous qualities. The Anti-Villain is mostly a short term title. I can't really think of any examples right now of an anti-villain that didn't join up with the hero after a while. Inigo Montoya was one for a very short while right down to "you seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you." Alpha Flight in many Wolverine comics filled that roll. They are against the main character, but aren't really BAD. Miko is irritating as all hell and wants to see the Order brought to what she percieves as justice, but she hasn't crosses the true villain line just yet. Being obnoxious doesn't count as a villainous trait, but she sure is an antagonist nowadays so I'd say she counts.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Magneto is one, yes. Dr. Doom is as well- he is well-loved by the people of Latervia, and has, on occasion, battled alongside Reed Richards and Tony Stark for defeating great evils...

While I could come up with others if I wasn't so tired right now -renovating an office over the holidays- the one that springs to mind right now is Showtime's new darling, Dexter.

Dexter is a criminalist for Miami PD who specializes in blood-splatter analysis. He is also a serial killer. His victims- bad guys. Exclusively.

So far.

 

[DarkKestral]

I'd say an excellent anti-villain would be Satan, from Piers Anthony's For Love of Evil, in the Incarnations of Immortality series. He's a good person who fulfills the necessities of being the most evil being imaginable.

I think he's a good one, actually. He is undeniably evil, knows he's evil, but does mostly Good things to serve Evil ends with only the occasional "real" evil. He knows he's just about the most evil being in existence, but somehow, it's understood that he serves Evil to at the same time serve Good in his own way.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Hmm..basically, "Satan" is just his "day job," and the job description includes doing evil in order for Good to have a contrast... He's not evil, he's just punching his time card.

Yep! Anti-villain!

 

[DarkKestral]

Hmm..basically, "Satan" is just his "day job," and the job description includes doing evil in order for Good to have a contrast... He's not evil, he's just punching his time card.

Yep! Anti-villain!

Not quite. He's Evil because he likes it. He just happens to also think Good is not doing IT'S job, so He must pick up the slack, both by showing what Good is, and by being more Evil to compensate for the lack of Good influences, so that people will choose Good over Evil because they see the horrors of doing Evil.

His main moral question throughout much of the book is essentially this: "Is my job to evoke evil, and therefore serve the cause of Good by showing what true Evil is, or is it to be Evil for it's own sake, and revel in the destruction of Good?"

So, he does Good by being Evil, while at the same time, being Good but doing Evil. It's a very odd juxtaposition. He's both Anti-Hero AND Anti-Villain.

 

[Aaron L]

Magneto is one, yes. Dr. Doom is as well- he is well-loved by the people of Latervia, and has, on occasion, battled alongside Reed Richards and Tony Stark for defeating great evils...

While I could come up with others if I wasn't so tired right now -renovating an office over the holidays- the one that springs to mind right now is Showtime's new darling, Dexter.

Dexter is a criminalist for Miami PD who specializes in blood-splatter analysis. He is also a serial killer. His victims- bad guys. Exclusively.

So far.

Well, Doom is complicated (why he's my favorite villain flat out hands down ever.) I agree he's an antivillain (mostly), and I'm sad I didn't bring him up.


Oh, and Ozymandias is a great example, too, as was mentioned. Destroying a city to achieve world peace is definitely antivillainous.

 

[Cthulhudrew]

Dr. Doom is as well- he is well-loved by the people of Latervia, and has, on occasion, battled alongside Reed Richards and Tony Stark for defeating great evils...

???

Doom is well-loved by his people? When did this happen? The last I recall is that Doom ruled Latveria as a tyrant, kept his people in fear and governed by a watchdog group of robots, and wasn't above kidnapping and/or eliminating those who he viewed as a threat to his regime.

On another note, the description of Piers Anthony's Satan sounds similar to Mike Carey's Lucifer (from the Vertigo comic Lucifer), who I might also qualify as an anti-villain.