D&D 5E (+) The Athamir, or The Swordmage as The Ritual Blade

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
OK. So 1 Aether is equivalent to 2 spell points at first level, although the conversion reduces a bit after that. Means a 1st level Athame gets as many spells as a full casting class.
I’m not sure that adds up, actually. Not only will the Athame have a lot to spend Aether on, but IMO the spell point math isn’t even quite right to begin with.

While technically the athame currently has 1 Aether 3 times a day, or 3 Aether, at level 1, having to spend 10 minutes regaining a single Aether makes a difference. 3 level 1 spells per day is also only 1 more than the Artificer.
 

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Costing spells differently feels completely wrong in play, however, so if soemthing has to give, it’s something other than the Aether cost of spells.

I’m not sure that adds up, actually. Not only will the Athame have a lot to spend Aether on, but IMO the spell point math isn’t even quite right to begin with.

While technically the athame currently has 1 Aether 3 times a day, or 3 Aether, at level 1, having to spend 10 minutes regaining a single Aether makes a difference. 3 level 1 spells per day is also only 1 more than the Artificer.

It probably feels wonky because Aether points are modelled on spell points, and the values match up reasonably well with a short-rest half-caster. However because the Aether points convert to spells at a much better ratio than actual spell points, and the recovery increases to more than expected short rests/day, the maths gets weird.

This is only an issue if you decide that it is an issue however. There is definitely room for a caster class with the level limits of a half-caster, but more total spellcasting capacity than a full-caster.

If that doesn't seem like it fits the class, you could adjust recovery to half proficiency bonus number of times/day perhaps? Or the actual Aether point progression /level?
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I really quite like "Athamir," tbh. Better than just the actual name of the dagger/knife. Becomes much more a "fantasy rpg class" kind of thing.

As for the powers and subclass orders, I like a lot of it. The "standard swordmage" subclass. The more fightery/less (outward) magical and more magical/less (outward, but still capable) fightery options a good way to go. I might add a more stealth-oriented/infiltration/spy specialist "shadow magic" subclass.

I also might (well, no, I absolutely would. But you can do what you like) change the "White Lotus" name, given the White Lotus order from ATLA . Also, I'm not nuts about the "avatar state" direction. ...a little too copy/rip off, for me... and isn't this to have a swordmage class and get away from being an Elemental Monk?

That said, this is a homebrew class for your game and players. So if that's something you/they want and think will be cool to play, knock yourselves out.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
I noticed in a skimming, that you specifically call out a "rare school" of elemental "Binders" for fae, shadow, celestial or fiendish entities.

That makes me think/expect that one of your "Mystic Orders" (which I would rename "Esoteric Orders" for the subclasses, as its a term you use repeatedly in the class description) to be "Binder" or "Circle of the Bound" or -draw directly from your descriptive fluff of the class- as "The Magic Circle."

...and then make the others similar sounding: "The Magic Star (Pentagram)" for the castery swordmages, "The Magic Blade" for the fightery swordmages, "The Magic Chalice (or Cup or something, I am leaning into a Tarot symbology here, it seems" for the cleric-y healery swordmages (bonus "divine" spells, that are still "arcane Esoteric techniques" for game purposes), and a "The Magic Rod/Staff" for the stealthery roguish swordmages.

Another potential way to organize subclasses would be by assigning a different Order to a different type of spells/or predominant spelllsit or bonus spells from different spell lists: an Arcane, a Clerical, a Druidic guardian kind of swordmage, a Psionic, maybe an illusion magic specialist, a shadow magic specialist, etc...

But then, we're probably getting into what I would consider "way too many subclasses" territory. I think the simplicity and symbolism of a "general/default" swordmage order, and then the four Tarot *(which as you well know, are the four elements) fits and fluffs nicely.

Just random thoughts/ideas I'm passing along.

I am also unclear...and it might require a more thorough read, about the "spells known"...but in your manual/spellbook...but there's also a Pool mechanic (your Aether points) that's fueling some things but not all...

Would it, perhaps, be more...simple, by which I mean/think/hope an overall "tighter" design to just have the Aether mechanic fuel most if not all of your features.

Then, there's also, your "Esoteric Techniques"...which read, to me, in the descriptive parts as it would be things you can do in your fighting/swording/weapon side of things...so shouldn't they relate, moreso to abilities you can do with your "Dweomer Weapon" (which I also really like as a term/title, btw)? But, as far as I can tell, is merely a spell list...so why isn't it just the "Swordmage Spell List?"

There was something else that caught my eye/made me think 'hmm"...but it's gone now/slipped my mind. I'll post it if it comes back.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
OH! It came back/I remember! ...the whole "Witcher" thing...

You mention a couple of times in the class description about "alchemy" and "alchemical [alterations or whatever it was]"...

So, got to thinking, why don't I see any Alchemical/Alchemist skills or features that have to do with -at least knowledge of- potions if not actual alchemist abilities"...or Alchemist ability at higher levels...and then you use your Aether to make them actual magical potions/elixirs that you can siphon a lot of the physical amplification stuff to being potion based instead of taking up space in the spell list.

But, that was the thought. If you're mentioning "alchemy," which is a very specific thing for fantasy rpgs, in relation to a class, then that should be reflected in the features somewhere. Doesn't have to be a "big" part of it. This is still a swordmage. But, on the "magey" side of things, I feel like there should be some alchemy in the mix.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
It probably feels wonky because Aether points are modelled on spell points, and the values match up reasonably well with a short-rest half-caster. However because the Aether points convert to spells at a much better ratio than actual spell points, and the recovery increases to more than expected short rests/day, the maths gets weird.
Yeah replenishing proficiency mod per day should match the expected short rests per day, and thus have the same amount of Aether per day that the monk has in a “standard” adventuring day. That’s why I made it a ten minute ritual with a limit per day. If it feels too powerful I may reduce it to “regain half, round up” and see that feels.
This is only an issue if you decide that it is an issue however. There is definitely room for a caster class with the level limits of a half-caster, but more total spellcasting capacity than a full-caster.
Yeah and considering it has a decent amount of its regular offense and defense bound up in Aether-fueled abilities that aren’t spells, I think it’ll be fine in practice. There’s a reason it’s version of smite (focused strike) uses a smaller damage due that the paladin’s divine smite, up until level 11 or so.

I need to review the spell list and make sure it doesn’t have stuff like shield, and does have a lot of utility stuff.
If that doesn't seem like it fits the class, you could adjust recovery to half proficiency bonus number of times/day perhaps? Or the actual Aether point progression /level?
We’ll see, but I’m open to either of those. I think I’d go “half your total Aether PB times per day” first. That probably works better for all large short rest resource pools when converting to PB/day model.


I really quite like "Athamir," tbh. Better than just the actual name of the dagger/knife. Becomes much more a "fantasy rpg class" kind of thing.
Yeah I think it works well.
As for the powers and subclass orders, I like a lot of it. The "standard swordmage" subclass. The more fightery/less (outward) magical and more magical/less (outward, but still capable) fightery options a good way to go. I might add a more stealth-oriented/infiltration/spy specialist "shadow magic" subclass.

I also might (well, no, I absolutely would. But you can do what you like) change the "White Lotus" name, given the White Lotus order from ATLA . Also, I'm not nuts about the "avatar state" direction. ...a little too copy/rip off, for me... and isn't this to have a swordmage class and get away from being an Elemental Monk?
The swordmage has a history of being an elementalist, which is why this is the main subclass. I might move this subclass wholesale to the Monk and rename some stuff, but for now, it’s there to allow making 4e style elemental swordmages.
That said, this is a homebrew class for your game and players. So if that's something you/they want and think will be cool to play, knock yourselves out.
The idea is to publish 5-7 classes together with some optional variant features and possibly subclasses for PHB classes, as an “esoteric 5e D&D” type supplement.
I noticed in a skimming, that you specifically call out a "rare school" of elemental "Binders" for fae, shadow, celestial or fiendish entities.

That makes me think/expect that one of your "Mystic Orders" (which I would rename "Esoteric Orders" for the subclasses, as its a term you use repeatedly in the class description) to be "Binder" or "Circle of the Bound" or -draw directly from your descriptive fluff of the class- as "The Magic Circle."

...and then make the others similar sounding: "The Magic Star (Pentagram)" for the castery swordmages, "The Magic Blade" for the fightery swordmages, "The Magic Chalice (or Cup or something, I am leaning into a Tarot symbology here, it seems" for the cleric-y healery swordmages (bonus "divine" spells, that are still "arcane Esoteric techniques" for game purposes), and a "The Magic Rod/Staff" for the stealthery roguish swordmages.
Yeah white lotus probably is better as an Int fighter. Not sure what atla is, but White Lotus School is from 4e and 3.5 Book of Nine Swords. I really like Order of The Magic Circle. Not sure about chalice and stuff, but not a bad idea to use the language of the other ritual tools in a class named after one of the main tools.
Another potential way to organize subclasses would be by assigning a different Order to a different type of spells/or predominant spelllsit or bonus spells from different spell lists: an Arcane, a Clerical, a Druidic guardian kind of swordmage, a Psionic, maybe an illusion magic specialist, a shadow magic specialist, etc...

But then, we're probably getting into what I would consider "way too many subclasses" territory. I think the simplicity and symbolism of a "general/default" swordmage order, and then the four Tarot *(which as you well know, are the four elements) fits and fluffs nicely.
I think I like Esoteric Orders, but I’m not sure it’s better to use the same word a ton. I’ll think on it more. For the subclass ideas, I want them to feel like organizations you could join or use as a group patron, etc. I love the idea of a Tarot themed order, perhaps with some form of “randomize determining your extra bonus for the day” feature, idk.
Just random thoughts/ideas I'm passing along.

I am also unclear...and it might require a more thorough read, about the "spells known"...but in your manual/spellbook...but there's also a Pool mechanic (your Aether points) that's fueling some things but not all...

Would it, perhaps, be more...simple, by which I mean/think/hope an overall "tighter" design to just have the Aether mechanic fuel most if not all of your features.
Spellcasting is fueled by Aether. You cast spells by spending points.
Then, there's also, your "Esoteric Techniques"...which read, to me, in the descriptive parts as it would be things you can do in your fighting/swording/weapon side of things...so shouldn't they relate, moreso to abilities you can do with your "Dweomer Weapon" (which I also really like as a term/title, btw)? But, as far as I can tell, is merely a spell list...so why isn't it just the "Swordmage Spell List?"
Dweomer Techniques might be interesting, but some are offensive, some defensive, and some utility, so I’m not sure.

Some are similar to spells, but are more similar to monk ki abilities with more outward magic, if that makes sense.

But most are things that relate either to your aegis, or your Dweomer weapon. The utility ones can be flavored a little more to relate to the power of your aegis, I suppose.
There was something else that caught my eye/made me think 'hmm"...but it's gone now/slipped my mind. I'll post it if it comes back.
lol I look forward to it.

@ all: If it helps make sense of things, the idea is to present a class with access to spells, and to essential magical Battlemaster maneuvers, using the same resource. May even make some techniques that aren’t especially magical. Right now the class isn’t succinct in presentation because it’s been heavily revised a lot of the last month.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
OH! It came back/I remember! ...the whole "Witcher" thing...

You mention a couple of times in the class description about "alchemy" and "alchemical [alterations or whatever it was]"...

So, got to thinking, why don't I see any Alchemical/Alchemist skills or features that have to do with -at least knowledge of- potions if not actual alchemist abilities"...or Alchemist ability at higher levels...and then you use your Aether to make them actual magical potions/elixirs that you can siphon a lot of the physical amplification stuff to being potion based instead of taking up space in the spell list.

But, that was the thought. If you're mentioning "alchemy," which is a very specific thing for fantasy rpgs, in relation to a class, then that should be reflected in the features somewhere. Doesn't have to be a "big" part of it. This is still a swordmage. But, on the "magey" side of things, I feel like there should be some alchemy in the mix.
Yeah that’s a good point. IRL Alchemy is just an ancient word for laboratory science. In D&D, it’s specifically magical chemistry. I wish D&D used the term in a way that meant that the artificer would be called the alchemist, but that ship sailed decades ago.

perhaps the class could get auto proficiency in alchemists tools, and some abilities could be potion or similarly based.

Even just some language, like describing the process of making the Dweomer Weapon as involving alchemical acid etching sigils into the blade, along with ritual magic to bind power into those sigils, etc.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I think going forward, I’ll be calling it the Athamir.

The etching of weapons chemically involves a “mordant”, which is simply the term for chemical compounds used to etch, or to make dye insoluble on a piece of clothe. Probably some language can be taken from that.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Idea: a set of esoteric techniques that let you make “elixirs” of different kinds, allowing the class to spend resources on support. Things like granting THP, or granting temporary damage reduction, or giving the drinker a brief breath weapon, etc.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
The subclasses are crystallizing for me in terms of a through line.

I’m thinking that each Order is named for a symbolic relationship that represents a philosophy. So, the Elemental Compass rather than the Four Winds. The Magic Circle rather than White Lotus.

Etc.
 

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