D&D (2024) The Battle Master Paradigm

Tony Vargas

Legend
So I suppose the question is, are there any changes to Battlemaster that could be made that would not massively unbalance the subclass? Could higher level battlemasters apply rider effects (not damage) to a second attack in the same turn?
That's kinda a tough question, in a sense, because class balance is so bad to begin with, and "imbalanced wildly OP" fighter-sub class (relative to, say, Champion or PDK) might just, say, barely rival the Paladin, for instance.

So, I'd say, unless you're nerfing half the classes, I wouldn't worry about unbalancing the battlemaster, just think of it as a first step before beefing up the other Fighter sub-classes. ;)
 

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Pauln6

Hero
If you accept the premise that the fighter as a whole is underpowered (which it is), then you could simply buff every subclass without worrying about upsetting anything.
That seems like a lot of work! Much easier to buff the core class but tbh, I don't think fighters are underpowered so much as they need a nova ability and a couple of out of combat things to do to make them more interesting.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
So I suppose the question is, are there any changes to Battlemaster that could be made that would not massively unbalance the subclass? Could higher level battlemasters apply rider effects (not damage) to a second attack in the same turn?

Well, I've mentioned before some of my changes from before One DnD

18th level I gave them -> Lord of Battle: Enemies cannot have advantage when attacking you. Additionally, if you roll a 1 on a damage die for a weapon attack, you may re-roll. If you already have a re-roll due to Savage Attacker, or a similar ability maximize the die instead.

It is a pretty nice ability, but nothing insane.

Level 7 I did this -> Master of a Thousand Plans: Starting at 7th level, your study of combat and war has given you the opportunity to plan for any encounter. You can no longer be surprised. If you have a feature that prevents you from being surprised already, you may add your Intelligence Modifier to your Initiative.

Things that are nice, but aren't going to be directly affecting their damage or battlefield control. Though I did give them an ability to allow their allies to move as a reaction at the start of combat, which many people may think is crazy powerful.
 

I'd love this personally, but there was a lot of people who had various axes to grind about TBo9S, ranging from "it makes the Fighter obsolete to "everyone is too magical" to "it's too anime" (whatever that even means).

5e seems a bit too conservative to let Battlemasters use Elder Mountain Hammer or White Raven Tactics.
I don't think the new cohort of 5e players will have those concerns. We've grown up with magical fighters in our media.
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I don't think the new cohort of 5e players will have those concerns. We've grown up with magical fighters in our media.
That may be so, but WotC has to be willing to make more magical warriors to find out, and it's hard to imagine them taking the risk. So people who want this sort of thing in their games will have to get them from a 3rd party source.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Does WotC have any qualms about making 'magical' fighters?
- Eldritch Knight right there in the PH at launch, Rune Knight & Echo Knight... :unsure: ...Arcane Archer... and those are just fighter sub-classes...
 

That may be so, but WotC has to be willing to make more magical warriors to find out, and it's hard to imagine them taking the risk. So people who want this sort of thing in their games will have to get them from a 3rd party source.
What do you mean? Just about every matial subclass for the last few years has been magical. Wild Magic Barbarian? Psi Knight Fighter? Fey Ranger?
 

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
I didn't mean at the subclass level, the conversation started with:

Corinnguard said:
What about updating 3e's Tome of Battle maneuvers and Combat Traditions to One D&D? You could have it where at 3rd level the Battle master gains proficiency in 1 to 2 Combat Traditions, and maybe learn gain a third proficiency at a higher level. They then select the maneuvers they like as they advance in this subclass.
 

Pedantic

Legend
I didn't mean at the subclass level, the conversation started with:

Corinnguard said:
What about updating 3e's Tome of Battle maneuvers and Combat Traditions to One D&D? You could have it where at 3rd level the Battle master gains proficiency in 1 to 2 Combat Traditions, and maybe learn gain a third proficiency at a higher level. They then select the maneuvers they like as they advance in this subclass.
It feels impossible now, but I sincerely wish early Orcus had hewed closer to that as the base development and something like the Warblade just outright replaced the Fighter in an alternate universe 4th edition.
 

Clint_L

Hero
If you accept the premise that the fighter as a whole is underpowered (which it is), then you could simply buff every subclass without worrying about upsetting anything.
I don't accept that premise...and neither does WotC. Nor do 5e tier lists. In fact, fighter is usually one of the higher ranked classes. Which is why fighters are getting new options but not power buffs, aside from those they will share with other classes via weapon mastery.

When it comes to just DPR, fighters are arguably the S tier class in 5e, and certainly in the top three. That's not where they need help, and buffing their damage would absolutely unbalance the game.
 

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