The Beatdown Radar

[shilsen]

I have tossed out actual alignments in my games, and have the items/spells/abilities that deal with alignments (Smite, Protection from Evil, Robe of the Archmagi) work on those who have an alignment aura: paladins and blackguards, clerics, elder dragons and undead, and outsiders such as demons and solars. No one else is so devoted to a particular ethos so much that the supernatural recognizes them as Good or Evil and reacts accordingly. It is a system which allows for a shades-of-grey type of game without eliminating certain aspects of the game mechanics.

From my perspective, that sounds like you're making things more black and white, actually. Anybody who Smite Evil works on in your game, for example, is someone who evidently deserves to be smited. But in the core rules that's not necessarily the case, which brings in a significant level of ambiguity that your system would remove.

Of course, I'm going off just your post, with no actual experience of your game, so I could be dead wrong here.

 

[WayneLigon]

I can't say I've ever had the situation of a Paladin standing in the marketplace doing Detect Evil, and I've never seen anyone use it as a sole justification for killing someone.

If they did, in most campaigns I've run, it might or might not be remarked on. People know what Paladins are and what they can do, and that they are good people. If one draws his sword and runs Bob the greengrocer through then they assume it was for a damn good reason and they'd thank him for killing the serpent in their midst, as they should. After all, one of the direct servants of the gods (The 'no god' option for paladins and clerics is not an option in most campaigns I've run) has had this revelation. Most people know this and both love and fear seeing a Paladin in their midst.

It's when you run into Evil people in power that things get tough. They have protectors, or personal power of their own. The paladin that draws steel on the king's advisor in the throne room might or might not get filled with arrows; wisdom, though, dictates that he wait and accuse the man in private audience or try to use the sure and certain knowledge that the man is Evil to find something to show others that he is evil. At least he now knows, and can plant doubt in the minds of those who need to know.

And even in that scenario, it might depend on the paladin. If the paladin is a friend of the king and has been part of a group that has saved the king and his kingdom a number of times over the years then the king might well allow the advisor to be lead away in chains while they find out what he's been up to. The king, unless he's corrupt or an idiot, knows the paladin serves a higher power than his so he's going to listen to him.

Neutral cleric of an evil god? Not really a problem. In most campaigns I've run, being a cleric or servant of an evil god is an automatic death sentence in the countries dominated by the Good religions, so if he's personally neutral or not makes no real difference. (It's one of the few truly automatic death sentences there is; the only reason anyone might stay their hand is to find out if there are more of them close by.) He still serves, aids and derives spiritual strength and power from an evil entity. (This is where my like of 3E's clerical alignment spread breaks down slightly; yeah, you can have a neutral cleric of an evil god - for a short time. Serving something like that, though, will turn you evil sooner than later.)

In most cases, in games I've run, finding out someone is Evil via Detect Evil, is a strong sign that they Bear Watching. They'll note the person and see what they do. Bob the greengrocer may have evil dwelling in his heart but he might well not have acted on it. Yet. There may be some lesson that can be taught there to turn Bob back to the path of good, or the local priests can be warned so they can pay closer attention to the man and his family.

 

[Psion]

Not really a problem. In most campaigns I've run, being a cleric or servant of an evil god is an automatic death sentence in the countries dominated by the Good religions, so if he's personally neutral or not makes no real difference.

IMC, neutral clerics of evil deities often fill the role of "placators" who appeal to the evil deity to not be so evil, overlook their village, etc.

Most communities take a dim view of the unjustified murder of a priest who is keeping the storms of the goddess of cold and hunger at bay.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

People know what Paladins are and what they can do, and that they are good people. If one draws his sword and runs Bob the greengrocer through then they assume it was for a damn good reason and they'd thank him for killing the serpent in their midst, as they should.

I disagree that the townspeople should thank the Paladin for killing someone out of the blue. For starters, how do the people know the Paladin is a Paladin? Because the 'Paladin' told them so? I would be very suspicious if someone walked up to one of my neighbors; shot them dead and then flashed me a government badge.

I might be able to buy this if the Paladin was 16th level and had been in the area for most of their carreer and everyone knew who they were on sight but that would be the very rare case.

But then this would be an open invitation for shape changing magic and mafia style killings: Oh look, [someone disguised as] Joe Paladin killed Dave - Dave must have been evil.

 

[delericho]

And even in that scenario, it might depend on the paladin. If the paladin is a friend of the king and has been part of a group that has saved the king and his kingdom a number of times over the years then the king might well allow the advisor to be lead away in chains while they find out what he's been up to. The king, unless he's corrupt or an idiot, knows the paladin serves a higher power than his so he's going to listen to him.

Except, while the Paladin has been working to get into the position whereby he can detect evil on the advisor, the advisor is busy speaking to the king...

"How do you know he's a Paladin? Sure, he says he is, but even I could make that claim..."

"The church vouches for him? Well, how sure are you you can trust them? Frankly, you're already being more than generous allowing them to horde such magical might without your oversight..."

"Look at all the harm he's caused - those orcs weren't slaughtering our people until this vigilante attacked them..."

"He killed Bob the greengrocer! Sure, he claimed he was evil, but where's the proof? Can a just king really allow such a loose sword make a mockery of the rule of law? Justice demands an answer!"

And, all the while, he has his agents provocateur loudly talking up the paladin's reputation, extolling his obvious superiority as a potential monarch, and spreading reports that the church is considering a holy crusade against the corruption in the royal court, culling it wherever it may be found... Is the king really sure his character is pure?

Assuming the evil advisor is at all competent, he's also busy doing a good job for the crown, increasing tax revenues, keeping the people safe, or whatever he's charged to do. So, it's far from certain that the king will listen to the paladin over the advisor, certainly without proof. In fact, if he does it right, the advisor can have the king order the execution of the paladin on charges of treason and/or heresy, without so much as a chance to defend himself.

 

[SteveC]

It's times like these that I think of a paladin played in one of my games: Faith McCandles. Faith didn't choose to be a paladin, she was chosen by her god to be one, and she never really lost her personal sense of what was right and wrong in the process.

For Faith, detect evil was really "detect somebody my god doesn't like." Since it is very hard to prove that someone was evil after she killed them, and also because she ran into a couple neutral clerics of evil gods, she decided firmly that evil was based on what you did, rather than what her spell told her. She was the strangest paladin I ever ran for: we set out what her code required her to do, but then she also had her personal code of ethics that was very different. She walked the line very carefully between what she was told to do, and what she knew herself to be right.

Now I was playing her god, and in this particular world the gods were more pragmatic than they are in a lot of campaigns, so Faith did just fine. She even got a personal meeting with her god at much higher levels, who basically said, "I chose you to carry out my will, and you do it, even if you don't always agree with me. You follow your own curious moral code, and walk the line between what you believe is right, and what I tell you is right in your paladin's code. At the end of the day, evil is still smote, so good job."

It was a strange character, but also one of the most purely good characters I ever ran for.

--Steve

 

[the Jester]

Say the king has two advisors, one of whom is secretly in league with demons to overthrow him. If Detect (Alignment) didn't exist, this would be an interesting problem- you'd have to try to find evidence of the treachery somehow, and magic would be only limited help, since spells like Discern Lie allow a saving throw and are thus unreliable.

I ran a plot like this- but I did it in a game where I had removed alignments, many spells and paladins too. So it was a lot of fun- but it was obvious at the time that it wouldn't have worked with those things in place. So yeah, I agree that detect [alignment] spells can be "spoilers" to some extent.

 

[Psion]

I ran a plot like this- but I did it in a game where I had removed alignments, many spells and paladins too. So it was a lot of fun- but it was obvious at the time that it wouldn't have worked with those things in place. So yeah, I agree that detect [alignment] spells can be "spoilers" to some extent.

The way I see it, smart villains KNOW that these detection powers exist, and may have even been thwarted by them before, and may know to appeal to demons for spells to deflect such magical inquiry, or seek appropriate magic items (potions or amulets of nondetection.)

 

[Rackhir]

All I know is that in Shilsen's campaign, that we are generally relieved when someone detects as evil, since it means we may actually be able to trust them...

 

[Kurotowa]

Let's not forget that a Paladin is Lawful as well as Good. I've never see a world where having an Evil alignment was a crime, much less a capital one. As for summery executions without a trial, I can see them being allowed in a very brutal theocracy, but those and Paladins don't usually go together. In other words, attacking someone with legal rights just because they detect as evil is in fact a crime itself. Not anything a Paladin should be doing.