The Beatdown Radar

[Umbran]

Say the king has two advisors, one of whom is secretly in league with demons to overthrow him. If Detect (Alignment) didn't exist, this would be an interesting problem-

The guy is in league with demons, and the guy doesn't have the brains or wherewithal to protect himself from the effects of a first level spell?!? He deserves the whuppin' he gets.

The demons will even be happy - as they get the evil advisor's soul all the more quickly. With a guy that incompetent, it isn't like they're expecting to get much more out of him than that.

 

[thedungeondelver]

Generally when someone tells me they want to play a paladin and they have their heart set on it, I'll ask them to read Three Hears and Three Lions first (or at least the salient parts) and then tell me if they still want to - that's pretty much the model for Paladins in my Greyhawk campaigns.

 

[VirgilCaine]

"The church vouches for him? Well, how sure are you you can trust them? Frankly, you're already being more than generous allowing them to horde such magical might without your oversight..."

This assumes churches are in subordinate positions to governments--unlikely.

It's times like these that I think of a paladin played in one of my games: Faith McCandles. Faith didn't choose to be a paladin, she was chosen by her god to be one, and she never really lost her personal sense of what was right and wrong in the process.

Faith McCandles? That sounds like a cheap fake I.D.
"Faith McCandles, George Valtrex, Zeke Zoloft, welcome to the Twisted ."

 

[thedungeondelver]

Faith McCandles? That sounds like a cheap fake I.D.
"Faith McCandles, George Valtrex, Zeke Zoloft, welcome to the Twisted ."

I have her first album; an acoustic-and-piano thing on IRS Records, from back in the Athens college-rock days, I think.

 

[Henry]

I've never seen a Detect Evil start a fight -- though I have seen it as the basis for sour looks and attitude from the Paladin toward the object of his disdain. I've never known a Paladin played to attack unjustly, but then, there are very few people who want to play paladins anyway, so it comes back easily.

 

[delericho]

This assumes churches are in subordinate positions to governments--unlikely.

Ah, but if they're not then things are even easier for the evil advisor, since he can then work on the ruler's fear that the church secretly wants to take over, that the church is a threat to his power or life, or whatever. Or, he appeals to greed, and suggests that the church already has too much, and should perhaps be willing to subject itself to taxation - for the feeding of the poor, of course.

The conflicts between church and state in England during the reign of Henry VIII, and in much of Europe at other times, provide a very useful model for this sort of thing.

 

[wingsandsword]

This assumes churches are in subordinate positions to governments--unlikely.

Why, in a typical D&D world, it would be far more unlikely that the government will be subordinate to a religious order.

While historically in the European model D&D is loosely based on, one church had power over soveriegns and could dictate things across the known world, with the polytheistic model of the typical D&D setting that isn't gong to happen.

Take the three classic D&D worlds: Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance. In each one you've got a pantheon of deities, sometimes large, of widely varied alignments, with no one god being supreme over others. Some are more popular and publically accepted, but even a few of the more malevolent (i.e evil) ones have followers in upstanding society (Wee Jas and Nuitari come to might right offhand). You've got a large number of religions, with completely separate heirarchies and clergy, different dogmas, widely different alignments, and each one wanting the ear of the King. In various places one church might be more influential and predominant, but so strong that the crown itself is subordinate? I don't recall that happening in any but the rarest cases in published settings.

When a Paladin tries to use his divine authority as some replacement for a rightful and legal pronouncement of sentence, that's really pushing the "lawful" aspect of their alignment. Especially since Paladins aren't automatically a part of a church heirarchy, they are chosen by their deity, not by their deity's priesthood. Characters don't go around with their class on a convenient nametag or have an ID card with their name, class and level to present. Somebody claiming to be a Paladin can't just instantly flash a badge and make it known.