D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[Charlaquin]

and why it wasn't buffed in 5.5?


Honestly 8d6 at 5th level is pretty darn good. A 5th level cleric might have 31 hp. So a single fireball with just a touch above the answer can absolutely melt some 5th level characters.

as was noted, its really the upcast where the problem lies. A 8d6 3rd level spell against CR5 threats isn't so bad. A 9d6 4th level spell against CR7 threats is doing a lot less bang for the buck.

Interestingly, I think this might explain what happened with Conjure Elementals, or whichever one it was that everyone was freaking out about in 2024 that scaled double before getting errata’d. It was, in essence, a new damage spell built from the ground up with modern understanding of the system’s math, and it really scales like such spells should scale. But, since they didn’t update all the other damage spells, it ended up being overpowered, in the sense that if you aren’t taking it, you’re hamstringing yourself. So, it needed the errata. Or else every other damage spell did, and at that point backwards compatibility is out the window.

 

[cbwjm]

Shea mentions that subclasses are one of the areas that AREN'T very modular. Which, yeah! Maybe they should be more modular!

I haven't had a chance to listen yet, is this in reference to each subclass having alternate effects that can be chosen or subclasses that can be made for multiple classes? I remember the Strixhaven subclasses and how they were for more than a single class but didn't quite work. Then they started work on 5.5 and initially all classes followed the same subclass leveling structure which would have been perfect for getting those Strixhaven subclasses working right.

 

[Minigiant]

I think the plug and play throughout 5e ecosystem being popular in this panel's audience is self-selecting. it's a panel on the full ecosystem with people who advocate for mix and matching. That audience was always going to be people who do it or think about doing it

I think both Mikes are such big proponents of modular design that those who go listen to then will be as well

But as a whole, 5e fans are mostly official or not. With the most popular nonofficial modules and houserules which ARENT while new games becoming official rules.

 

[Minigiant]

"Blue Magic" design was part of what informed the design of Shield and Counterspell, since Mearls is a big Blue-style M:TG player. This could probably be a whole thread of its own, but the Blue playstyle is a big part of why I am not an M:TG fan. These spells being such annoyances shows that he was successful at this design....but maybe that the design has some issues....

Which is funny because if I recall correctly counter spell was mostly shifted to the side and relegated to older formats and they made more fun versions of counterspells in MTG.

I mean a ton of blast spells. But with 5e's flexible casting, there is lower preparation cost of more niche counterspells.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I haven't had a chance to listen yet, is this in reference to each subclass having alternate effects that can be chosen or subclasses that can be made for multiple classes? I remember the Strixhaven subclasses and how they were for more than a single class but didn't quite work. Then they started work on 5.5 and initially all classes followed the same subclass leveling structure which would have been perfect for getting those Strixhaven subclasses working right.

Broader. Talking about modularity, and how that lets 3PPs get away with 5e-compatible design that is quite different from 5e and uses some different assumptions. Subclasses were mentioned as one of those spaces where that's not really true: subclasses kind of assume that an underlying class is going to work a particular way, so, like, if you change how a class works, you can't use the subclass with it anymore. Change how sneak attack works or how spell slots work or how Action Surge works and it has bang-on effects on subclass design.

So, it's harder to say you have a "compatible" design with 5e when you change certain class assumptions, since the subclasses will be impacted. And, similarly, new subclasses need to integrate with existing classes. And if you redesign both class and subclass, well, that's a huge lift - an area that impacts how "compatible" a product is with "existing 5e."

 

[I'm A Banana]

Which is funny because if I recall correctly counter spell was mostly shifted to the side and relegated to older formats and they made more fun versions of counterspells in MTG.

I mean a ton of blast spells. But with 5e's flexible casting, there is lower preparation cost of more niche counterspells.

Mearls here says something like "It turns out needing two islands to cast a counterspell is a part of why it works," so, yeah, he definitely has learned that the preparation cost matters.

While it's a different vibe in D&D than it is in M:TG, I think "stop having fun" effects are ultimately kind of toxic in play because of how they really mess with the joy of your fellow players. Less toxic maybe in D&D where the PCs win most of the time anyway and you're really just figuring out how they get to that victory. But still, clearly...impactful...

 

[Zardnaar]

and why it wasn't buffed in 5.5?


Honestly 8d6 at 5th level is pretty darn good. A 5th level cleric might have 31 hp. So a single fireball with just a touch above the answer can absolutely melt some 5th level characters.

as was noted, its really the upcast where the problem lies. A 8d6 3rd level spell against CR5 threats isn't so bad. A 9d6 4th level spell against CR7 threats is doing a lot less bang for the buck.

It hurts more vs PCs than NPCs.

PC hp are very similar to 3E.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Ok, so I got to that part of the podcast, and… this isn’t what he said. He just said “we made a mistake.” Which, like… sure, I get that, but I’m still left wondering why, at the time, he said it was intentionally above the curve.

That was the mistake, they made a mistake as to where the cure lay. It was not until quite some time later that they realized it.

 

[Scribe]

Which is funny because if I recall correctly counter spell was mostly shifted to the side and relegated to older formats and they made more fun versions of counterspells in MTG.

The death of Counterspell in MtG is a myth.

Blue based Control/Counter magic is a part of nearly every format, and certainly every good and healthy meta.

 

[Charlaquin]

That was the mistake, they made a mistake as to where the cure lay. It was not until quite some time later that they realized it.

I suppose. It’s an explanation of what he said that makes sense, but he didn’t say it himself, so it’s speculation. Reasonable speculation, but speculation.