D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[SlyFlourish]

2.3 million downloads in 9 hours- Great Jupiter Batman!

That's the whole podcast but you should still subscribe! It's good!

 

[SlyFlourish]

I got to ask a few questions. I was one of two who raised their hand at being in a current AD&D game.

It occurred to me that we shouldn't have expected a lot of AD&D players at a 5e panel. I don't know why I didn't bring that up.

 

[James Gasik]

Mearls here says something like "It turns out needing two islands to cast a counterspell is a part of why it works," so, yeah, he definitely has learned that the preparation cost matters.

While it's a different vibe in D&D than it is in M:TG, I think "stop having fun" effects are ultimately kind of toxic in play because of how they really mess with the joy of your fellow players. Less toxic maybe in D&D where the PCs win most of the time anyway and you're really just figuring out how they get to that victory. But still, clearly...impactful...

That and information. In MtG, it's rare that a counterspell comes out of nowhere. You know what colors your opponent is playing, and what resources they have available (usually).

In D&D, you often have no idea you need to play around counterspell until you have a spell countered, not only leading to "feel bad" moments, but removing a lot of tactical play from the equation. You basically either hope that nobody can counter your spells or play as if everyone has counterspell ready to go.

 

[SlyFlourish]

I still think fireballs are really powerful. I've played close to a thousand 5e games in the past ten years and no one has ever been disappointed with fireball. Light clerics love fireball and I think they shouldn't have it on their list. Our super high level wizard still casts fireball like crazy. The idea of a bigger upcast isn't so bad but boy, 8d6 in that huge area at 5th level is really really good.

 

[Zardnaar]

I still think fireballs are really powerful. I've played close to a thousand 5e games in the past ten years and no one has ever been disappointed with fireball. Light clerics love fireball and I think they shouldn't have it on their list. Our super high level wizard still casts fireball like crazy. The idea of a bigger upcast isn't so bad but boy, 8d6 in that huge area at 5th level is really really good.

Tried 5.5 yet or remember 3E or 2E?

 

[James Gasik]

I think it's just we have to adjust our expectations of what Fireball is for. It's not a level 5 nuke the way it was in AD&D. It's a spell that if used properly, synergizes with the actions of the non-casters, weakening enemies so fights can end more quickly. A successful Hypnotic Pattern doesn't end the fight faster- it makes the fight safer, but you still need to chew through all the enemy hit points.

For older players or those who have heard the "Legend of Fireball" as the big reason to play a spellcaster, despite their weaknesses, it's a letdown to realize there are even CR 1's who aren't going to die to it, let alone entire encounters of foes. When I play a Wizard, my party always wants me to cast Fireball. Even if the actual spell I choose is more effective and less likely to accidentally burn one of them, lol, they think Fireball finishes fights.

Does that make it useless? Not at all. If you build a Sorcerer or Wizard who is all about Fireball and other damage spells, you'll do alright. But it also doesn't live up to the hype or the memes as often as you might think it should.

 

[overgeeked]

I still think fireballs are really powerful. I've played close to a thousand 5e games in the past ten years and no one has ever been disappointed with fireball. Light clerics love fireball and I think they shouldn't have it on their list. Our super high level wizard still casts fireball like crazy. The idea of a bigger upcast isn't so bad but boy, 8d6 in that huge area at 5th level is really really good.

Exactly. Use the right tool for the right job. It's not meant for hitting 1-2 big bags of hit points, it's meant for quickly clearing the room of minions...and it's amazing for that.

 

[FrogReaver]

Huh… weird. I don’t understand how it’s even possible for him to have been wrong about that, since IIRC the original claim was that they had a formula for how much damage a spell of a given level should do, and then for a few iconic damage spells they wanted to feel extra powerful, they went a few dice above what that formula suggested. Did he just… hallucinate doing that?

No, he's not ChatGPT.... or is he?

 

[FrogReaver]

I still think fireballs are really powerful. I've played close to a thousand 5e games in the past ten years and no one has ever been disappointed with fireball. Light clerics love fireball and I think they shouldn't have it on their list. Our super high level wizard still casts fireball like crazy. The idea of a bigger upcast isn't so bad but boy, 8d6 in that huge area at 5th level is really really good.

I don't think fireball is the best spell in the game at any level. But i do think it's a really good spell to have in the toolbox.

It's certainly one of the best non-concentration spells to use level 3+ slots on. To me that places it solidly in B territory.

 

[Hussar]

But you don't base the game mechanics around the one power gamer. Most people are not min-maxers, just like most video game players are not speed runners. You base it around the fun a group of people have. You base it around the feeling of being fair and levelled. Not the lone guy at the game store that wants to only play a character that will always do max damage. (PS - A few monsters with resistance to their gimmick instantly equalizes things for some encounters. The others, let them do their thing.)

And, there is another point. When the game isn't designed for people who optimize, it means that the rest of us can pick it up and play without having to constantly deal with it. Optimization results in narrower and narrower choices to make. That was the problem with 3e. Yup, you had a BAJILLION options out there. But, if you played something like Paizo adventures, which were heavily built around optimization, you couldn't choose 99% of them because of the optimization arms race.

I appreciate that 5e is far more loosey goosey and lets players play without constantly making cookie cutter characters that always have the same six feats, same magic items, and constantly cast the same five spells.