D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[cbwjm]

This is why 6E will be designed by gnome artificers.

Unfortunately they will be tinker gnomes from Krynn. Each book will be over 800 pages long and even after reading them, no one will know how the game works.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

even after reading them, no one will know how the game works.

A true throwback edition!

 

[Zardnaar]

One of things Mike Mearls said that I found interesting was that upcasting of classic blaster spells is where it really doesn't work.
Magic Missile shouldn't be 2-3 missiles per upcast level.
Fireball should be multiple dice as well.

Direct damage spells aren't really worth upcasting.

Magic missile is a bad spell. Except vs stirges then its great. Campaign theme surges is rare I'm guessing along with +3 fly swatter. murder aura vs stirges.

 

[bedir than]

Direct damage spells aren't really worth upcasting.

Magic missile is a bad spell. Except vs stirges then its great. Campaign there surges is rare I'm guessing.

RIGHT!

They should have many more dice when upcast. It doesn't scale because they made a mistake. A magic missile that's 12d4 is a very different beast than one that is 7d4.

 

[Zardnaar]

RIGHT!

They should have many more dice when upcast. It doesn't scale because they made a mistake. A magic missile that's 12d4 is a very different beast than one that is 7d4.

It wasn't very good back in the day either. Until you hit level 5.

Wasn't very good in 3E full stop.

 

[Charlaquin]

Oh! Ok, so he’s not saying that they didn’t intentionally overtune blast spells, but rather that their initial math probably lowballed blast spells too much, and so what they thought of as overtuning them at the time turns out in hindsight to have put their damage right about where it should be.

That makes WAY more sense to me.

Ok, so I got to that part of the podcast, and… this isn’t what he said. He just said “we made a mistake.” Which, like… sure, I get that, but I’m still left wondering why, at the time, he said it was intentionally above the curve.

 

[cbwjm]

+2 missiles per additional spell level would put magic missile in the right spot, right now I don't think I really cast it at a higher level because 1 additional missile won't really make much difference. I still like the spell though, can be handy when you know the enemy is close to dead and you just need to get some damage in. Better when playing at low character levels when hit points haven't completely blown out of proportion.

 

[Stalker0]

Ok, so I got to that part of the podcast, and… this isn’t what he said. He just said “we made a mistake.” Which, like… sure, I get that, but I’m still left wondering why, at the time, he said it was intentionally above the curve.

and why it wasn't buffed in 5.5?


Honestly 8d6 at 5th level is pretty darn good. A 5th level cleric might have 31 hp. So a single fireball with just a touch above the answer can absolutely melt some 5th level characters.

as was noted, its really the upcast where the problem lies. A 8d6 3rd level spell against CR5 threats isn't so bad. A 9d6 4th level spell against CR7 threats is doing a lot less bang for the buck.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Commentary as I'm listening to it:

• "Blue Magic" design was part of what informed the design of Shield and Counterspell, since Mearls is a big Blue-style M:TG player. This could probably be a whole thread of its own, but the Blue playstyle is a big part of why I am not an M:TG fan. These spells being such annoyances shows that he was successful at this design....but maybe that the design has some issues....
• Modularity is a good idea because it helps isolate problematic design. This theme remains strong in the conversation, and they talk about some areas where some modularity might go a little too far (they mention the ship rules in Ghosts of Saltmarsh than then were not picked up for Spelljammer, where they'd be a logical fit)
• Challenge Rating as a "measurement" really helps codify some groups' issues with it. I'd have loved to see a version of D&D that doesn't have a CR.
• I love the point made about how DMs can filter through the "mess" pretty well, but D&D doesn't always equip DMs to do that, because D&D often is silent about the design logic behind its decisions. The DMG would logically be the place for this. 2024 makes it worse (ie: removing the monster-building math).
• Interesting to hear about Mearls's current evaluation of Fireball and other AOE spells. He mentions that the "doubling" (assuming two targets who both fail saves) to calculate the damage value of spells like this was probably wrong, and that he actually add about 70% to the base damage rather than 100%, based on his play experience.
• Fascinating to hear the comparison between M:TG's "strategy" and D&D's "lack of strategy." Mearls thinks this is a mistake, and posits that for fighting monsters, your strategy should be winning the action economy by focus-firing down monsters, and thus an AOE spell like Fireball doesn't help you that much. "Hypnotic Pattern is way worse than Fireball." This is another thing that might be worth blowing up into a whole thread, because I'm not 100% sure I'm on board with his strategy proposition...or if I am, I'm not sure that his proposed strategy is actually what we want (vs. just being what we wound up with).
• He also mentions that upcasting in general is way too low: proposes Fireball should go up by 2d6/level (to continue to be on par) and Magic Missile should go up by 3 darts per spell level
• The link between compatibility and modularity is curious. Shea talks about combining LevelUp5e (calls out the Supply system & the exploration system) with 2014 5e with Tales of the Valiant's luck system (which he really loves) and doom points (which he also loves, as an alternative to legendary resistance, because they let you do other things). This is something I love about 5e's mess.
• Shea mentions that subclasses are one of the areas that AREN'T very modular. Which, yeah! Maybe they should be more modular!
• There's some rulings-vs-rules conversation where Mearls comes out swinging with "I don't think role playing games are games, they are an activity." I'm following his logic here, and it's a very interesting lens to look at D&D design through.
• Some gushing about Advantage and how it's binary (and I agree in a huge way - and am annoyed by the constant guidance/bless that I'm seeing).

 

[Scribe]

I just want to know my ene...err the 2 camps!

Upcasting isn't going to give me life.

"Blue Magic" design was part of what informed the design of Shield and Counterspell, since Mearls is a big Blue-style M:TG player.

A man of refinement and culture I see!

The fact we don't have a MtG RPG continues to bother me.