D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[Charlaquin]

Absolutely. Pretty sure my newbie player doesn't really get why any of these exceptions occur, and even my more experienced players hit a wall sometimes. I had a fight with a monster that cast darkness and the cleric - an experienced player! - didn't quite get why guiding bolt had disadvantage when fired at the monster in the darkness while the bard's hideous laughter just couldn't target the monster in the darkness and their shatter had no problems forcing a saving throw. Grappling introduces similar ambiguity (and is distinct from Restrained!).

It'd be really nifty if the modularity of 5e included an easy way to simplify a lot of this for some of the less math-friendly players. I think 2014's Proficiency Die has some legs on making it more distinct, but still...lots of overhead.

I actually love the proficiency die. I Pooh-poohed it back when it first appeared in the D&D Next playtest, because I didn’t like that the random nature of the bonus meant I couldn’t figure out, say, “I have +9 with thieves’ tools, so I can’t fail to pick a DC 10 lock.” But, I was wrong. The value of that knowledge is relatively small, and for some reason adding the results of two die rolls and one flat bonus together is easier for a lot of players than adding the result of one die roll and two flat bonuses together. Plus, it makes the way the proficiency actually functions much more transparent to the players.

 

[dave2008]

Plus, it makes the way the proficiency actually functions much more transparent to the players.

Could you clarify how you think the die makes it more clear to the the players? I've been toying with the idea of changing to prof. die, but I just didn't see the benefit vs the (assumed) increased processing time

 

[Horwath]

When you apply it has rationales, but it isn't really intuitive unless you're just really familiar with the rule set.

It boils down to each stat has 2 "modifiers" (the raw mod, and mod+stat), and it's extremely situational which one you use. (And of course the modifiers are different from the stat, but we won't go there.)

Are you attacking? Use the second one, except in weird cases. Are you rolling damage? Use the first one, never ever the second one.

Making a saving throw? Sometimes use the first, sometimes use the second, everyone is different and you better check your character sheet.

Making a skill check? Sometimes use the first, sometimes the second, everyone is different and you better check your character sheet. Oh, and a few characters have a special "third modifier" (expertise), so you definitely need to check your sheet for that so you don't forget.

Oh, and you're blessed? Well, definitely add a d4 to your attack roll. Your damage roll? Don't add the d4 there! Oh, you're being grappled? Don't add the d4 to that check! Oh wait, the grapple is part of a spell that has a save? Then yes, definitely add that d4! <sigh>

the ability scores should have been axed a long time ago.
their utility is next to nothing in 5E, and what there is can be easily replaced with modifiers.

even have all character sheets that puts modifier in the front and players learned that their DEX is "4" and not "18".

 

[Charlaquin]

Could you clarify how you think the die makes it more clear to the the players? I've been toying with the idea of changing to prof. die, but I just didn't see the benefit vs the (assumed) increased processing time

I think it makes it makes proficiency or lack of proficiency very obviously binary. You either roll the extra die (and it’s always the same die) or you don’t. Having flat modifiers encourages writing down the combined ability mod and proficiency bonus (or no proficiency bonus) next to all your skills on the list, which creates the illusion that each skill has an individual and bespoke bonus. With the proficiency die, the ability and the proficiency modify your roll in different ways, making it much harder not to pick up on the pattern that every single d20 test is just d20 roll plus the associated ability mod, and a binary yes/no on if you include the benefits of being proficient. It also makes it more obvious what component of the roll is coming from the proficiency (it’s always the extra die), and when/how that component scales (because at any given level you’re always adding the same die every time). Even expertise, which people have expressed in this thread tends to throw players off regarding what to add to what checks, is a simple matter of rolling a second Proficiency die - the same die you add for any other proficiency based on your level, you just roll two of them.