D&D General The Beautiful Mess of 5e

[Charlaquin]

Absolutely. Pretty sure my newbie player doesn't really get why any of these exceptions occur, and even my more experienced players hit a wall sometimes. I had a fight with a monster that cast darkness and the cleric - an experienced player! - didn't quite get why guiding bolt had disadvantage when fired at the monster in the darkness while the bard's hideous laughter just couldn't target the monster in the darkness and their shatter had no problems forcing a saving throw. Grappling introduces similar ambiguity (and is distinct from Restrained!).

It'd be really nifty if the modularity of 5e included an easy way to simplify a lot of this for some of the less math-friendly players. I think 2014's Proficiency Die has some legs on making it more distinct, but still...lots of overhead.

I actually love the proficiency die. I Pooh-poohed it back when it first appeared in the D&D Next playtest, because I didn’t like that the random nature of the bonus meant I couldn’t figure out, say, “I have +9 with thieves’ tools, so I can’t fail to pick a DC 10 lock.” But, I was wrong. The value of that knowledge is relatively small, and for some reason adding the results of two die rolls and one flat bonus together is easier for a lot of players than adding the result of one die roll and two flat bonuses together. Plus, it makes the way the proficiency actually functions much more transparent to the players.

 

[dave2008]

Plus, it makes the way the proficiency actually functions much more transparent to the players.

Could you clarify how you think the die makes it more clear to the the players? I've been toying with the idea of changing to prof. die, but I just didn't see the benefit vs the (assumed) increased processing time

 

[Horwath]

When you apply it has rationales, but it isn't really intuitive unless you're just really familiar with the rule set.

It boils down to each stat has 2 "modifiers" (the raw mod, and mod+stat), and it's extremely situational which one you use. (And of course the modifiers are different from the stat, but we won't go there.)

Are you attacking? Use the second one, except in weird cases. Are you rolling damage? Use the first one, never ever the second one.

Making a saving throw? Sometimes use the first, sometimes use the second, everyone is different and you better check your character sheet.

Making a skill check? Sometimes use the first, sometimes the second, everyone is different and you better check your character sheet. Oh, and a few characters have a special "third modifier" (expertise), so you definitely need to check your sheet for that so you don't forget.

Oh, and you're blessed? Well, definitely add a d4 to your attack roll. Your damage roll? Don't add the d4 there! Oh, you're being grappled? Don't add the d4 to that check! Oh wait, the grapple is part of a spell that has a save? Then yes, definitely add that d4! <sigh>

the ability scores should have been axed a long time ago.
their utility is next to nothing in 5E, and what there is can be easily replaced with modifiers.

even have all character sheets that puts modifier in the front and players learned that their DEX is "4" and not "18".

 

[Charlaquin]

Could you clarify how you think the die makes it more clear to the the players? I've been toying with the idea of changing to prof. die, but I just didn't see the benefit vs the (assumed) increased processing time

I think it makes it makes proficiency or lack of proficiency very obviously binary. You either roll the extra die (and it’s always the same die) or you don’t. Having flat modifiers encourages writing down the combined ability mod and proficiency bonus (or no proficiency bonus) next to all your skills on the list, which creates the illusion that each skill has an individual and bespoke bonus. With the proficiency die, the ability and the proficiency modify your roll in different ways, making it much harder not to pick up on the pattern that every single d20 test is just d20 roll plus the associated ability mod, and a binary yes/no on if you include the benefits of being proficient. It also makes it more obvious what component of the roll is coming from the proficiency (it’s always the extra die), and when/how that component scales (because at any given level you’re always adding the same die every time). Even expertise, which people have expressed in this thread tends to throw players off regarding what to add to what checks, is a simple matter of rolling a second Proficiency die - the same die you add for any other proficiency based on your level, you just roll two of them.

 

[dave2008]

I think it makes it makes proficiency or lack of proficiency very obviously binary. You either roll the extra die (and it’s always the same die) or you don’t. Having flat modifiers encourages writing down the combined ability mod and proficiency bonus (or no proficiency bonus) next to all your skills on the list, which creates the illusion that each skill has an individual and bespoke bonus. With the proficiency die, the ability and the proficiency modify your roll in different ways, making it much harder not to pick up on the pattern that every single d20 test is just d20 roll plus the associated ability mod, and a binary yes/no on if you include the benefits of being proficient. It also makes it more obvious what component of the roll is coming from the proficiency (it’s always the extra die), and when/how that component scales (because at any given level you’re always adding the same die every time). Even expertise, which people have expressed in this thread tends to throw players off regarding what to add to what checks, is a simple matter of rolling a second Proficiency die - the same die you add for any other proficiency based on your level, you just roll two of them.

Thank you - that was very helpful and makes a lot of sense.

 

[Horwath]

I think it makes it makes proficiency or lack of proficiency very obviously binary. You either roll the extra die (and it’s always the same die) or you don’t. Having flat modifiers encourages writing down the combined ability mod and proficiency bonus (or no proficiency bonus) next to all your skills on the list, which creates the illusion that each skill has an individual and bespoke bonus. With the proficiency die, the ability and the proficiency modify your roll in different ways, making it much harder not to pick up on the pattern that every single d20 test is just d20 roll plus the associated ability mod, and a binary yes/no on if you include the benefits of being proficient. It also makes it more obvious what component of the roll is coming from the proficiency (it’s always the extra die), and when/how that component scales (because at any given level you’re always adding the same die every time). Even expertise, which people have expressed in this thread tends to throw players off regarding what to add to what checks, is a simple matter of rolling a second Proficiency die - the same die you add for any other proficiency based on your level, you just roll two of them.

I get it, but it's in no way simpler than a single modifier.

how can 1d20+1d4+1d4+3 can be simpler than 1d20+7?

as for character sheet have each skill have 4 boxes
box 1: proficiency/expertise bonus
box 2: ability mod
box 3: any additional bonus
box 4: total bonus

 

[Hussar]

Heh. Even with the power of a VTT behind me, my newbie player STILL struggles with his battlemaster fighter. And this is a player who played an entire Phandelver campaign with me and is now halfway through Out of the Abyss.

I mean, it really can't get much easier when you're using a VTT. So many things are automated. But, STILL every single time he wants to use his maneuvers, I have to double check everything he does. Add in the effects of weapons like Vex and whatnot? Yikes. I'm trying to be as patient as I can, but, every now and again, I need to resist the urge to reach through the Internet and stab him in the eye out of frustration.

((Sorry, just REALLY needed to vent about that))

Fortunately, we managed to steer him clear of playing a Druid who specialized in summoning at the outset of the campaign. I would have lost my freaking mind.

So, yeah, there is definitely room for simplification.

 

[AnotherGuy]

We have an Expertise Die (d6) instead of doubling your proficiency.

For knowledge checks if it is something general you roll d20
If the knowledge checks are for something specific we roll with disadvantage
The Expertise Die can be for either check.
The randomness I find makes rolling fun.

Whereas with RAW, the double proficiency at higher levels, I find, makes skill checks less enjoyable for me as DM.