The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Thanee]

I ask because I do not think that in order to answer that question you have to look at the importance of the various merits.

Are you sure this is what you wanted to say?

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Umm... Necromancy?

Sure.

Psions have powers similar to Astral Projection, Clone, Energy Drain, False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement (i.e. Ego Whip, different ability score), etc.

They just do not do it as Necromancy. Game mechanics-wise though, it is practically the same thing.

They cannot animate or control undead, that's true.

But, they are able to emulate effects similar to those gained via many Sorcerer Necromancy spells.

 

[Rystil Arden]

I've thought of another bonus for sorcerers--Compared to Sorcerers, a disproportionate number of Psion powers (67 of 277, so just about 25%) are tagged as Mind-Affecting, so effects that protect against Mind-Affecting spells are more effective against Psions.

This includes 100% of all the Psionic powers I counted that also had the Death descriptor, so if you are fighting a Psion, immunity to Mind-Affecting abilities gives you an additional immunity to Death effects, which may be a second bonus for sorcerers (lack of non-Mind-Affecting death magic for Psions)

 

[KarinsDad]

I've thought of another bonus for sorcerers--Compared to Sorcerers, a disproportionate number of Psion powers (67 of 277, so just about 25%) are tagged as Mind-Affecting, so effects that protect against Mind-Affecting spells are more effective against Psions.

This includes 100% of all the Psionic powers I counted that also had the Death descriptor, so if you are fighting a Psion, immunity to Mind-Affecting abilities gives you an additional immunity to Death effects, which may be a second bonus for sorcerers (lack of non-Mind-Affecting death magic for Psions)

There are 4 death spells for Sorcerers.

All but the 9th level Power Word Kill have saving throws and spell resistance (PWK only has spell resistance).

Many creatures that are immune to mind affects are also immune to death effects. Examples: Constructs and Undead.


Having a high proportion of mind affecting powers also means having a high proportion of powers that give protection from those mind affecting affects, and it means having lots of different ways to mentally affect opponents.

Mind powers is an advantage of Psions. It is their schtick. I'm not going to list it as an advantage of Sorcerers that some opponents are resistant to that schtick. Psions have lots of other options, just like Sorcerers. If it were the only thing Psions could do, then sure. It would be an advantage.

But, the creatures immune or resistant to mind effects are also immune or resistant to a Sorcerer mind affects spells including a portion of the Illusion school that I already listed as a Sorcerer advantage.


I think we are getting to the point that we are really stretching to find differences.

 

[Thanee]

I think we are getting to the point that we are really stretching to find differences.

Psions can fit more prestige classes on the classes line of the character sheet (unless you use abbreviations).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Rystil Arden]

It's a weakness because because so many of the Psion's powers of other areas hinge upon the Mind-Affecting descriptor--things like Ego Whip (whereas Ray of Enfeeblement does not) and the death spells (whereas the Sorcerer ones do not). It was your answer about Necromancy that made me check it, but basically, the Psion's answer to Necromancy is to do it with Mind-Affecting powers.

Having [Mind-Affecting] is inherently a weakness because there are a variety of abilities that protect against such effects--If you have an ability that is otherwise equivalent without the tag on it, it is superior. Thus, the Sorcerer's advantage.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Are you sure this is what you wanted to say?

Bye
Thanee

Thanks, that was not what I wanted to say.

If we want to determine balance, we need to examine both number of merits and their strength.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Sure.

Psions have powers similar to Astral Projection, Clone, Energy Drain, False Life, Ray of Enfeeblement (i.e. Ego Whip, different ability score), etc.

They just do not do it as Necromancy. Game mechanics-wise though, it is practically the same thing.

They cannot animate or control undead, that's true.

But, they are able to emulate effects similar to those gained via many Sorcerer Necromancy spells.

I must admit, when I said Necromancy, I really ment "ability to deal specifically with undead." (After all, has anybody ever said "I want to be a Necromancer so I can Astrally Project?"

Though taking a closer look at the spell lists, I notice that some other main schticks of Necromancy, such as fatigue/exhastion and (surprisingly) fear do not seem to make it to the Psion power list.

 

[Scion]

E9: There is a not much of a selection of core Prestige Classes for Sorcerers and Psionic Prestige Classes are for Psions. Illithid Slayer is slightly more advantageous than Eldritch Knight, but also limited on enemy selection; Cerebremancer can be better than Mystic Theurge (if the arcane class is Wizard), Thrallherd is about equal to Red Wizard (even giving up manifester levels); Psion Uncarnate is somewhat ok, but Elocater and Metamind are weak. Arch Mage is not much help for a Sorcerer and Loremaster is hard to qualify for. The equivalent PrCs tend to be slightly better for the Psion, but giving up manifester levels makes many of them flavor selections at best. Neither class has real good PrCs to pick from.

I am not sure why Arch mage isnt much help for a sorc. Doesnt it basically give beanies that are better than what are listed as 'psionic advantages' and more? It doesnt have any lost levels of spellcasting either.

Loremaster is a bit tough to qualify for, but its benefits are rather incredible along with no loss in spellcasting.

Psion uncarnate is listed as 'somewhat ok' but it gives up 4 caster levels. I dont really see how that qualifies as ok to any useful degree.

Given 2 prcs which grant full spellcasting progression + beanies I'd have to say that the sorc is pretty far ahead in prc choice over the psion.

Which, for this thread, means it should be listed as 'S'

S7: Sorcerers get more spells to choose from ~375 whereas Psions are limited to fewer powers, ~277.

I havent counted the sorc spells, but I did just count the psion powers.. before the discipline the psion has 162 power choices. Domains usually add 16 more on average. Where is 277 coming from?

I suppose if you counted expanded knowledge you could could all of the psychic warrior powers as well you would get a few more, but there is a lot of overlap. Plus, in order to get those you have to be high enough level and spend a feat. Which means if that is where the number comes from then it is more than a little misleading.

P2: Wearing Armor does not have a failure chance for Psions.

Of course, sorcs dont have this with spells that have no somatic components either. Definately a psion advantage, but not listed as the full story.

P1: Psions get a psionic feat at first level where they can get a Psicrystal or some other feat. Sorcerers get a Familiar at first level. They have no chose of an extra feat.

P7: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 5 (note: I split these out for the same reason as splitting out range scaling and duration scaling for Sorcerers, they are different and unique advantages).

P8: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 10.

P9: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 15.

P10: Psions get a bonus psionic feat at level 20.

I dont really think this should be listed as several different advantages, rather a single advantage of getting 5 bonus feats over 20 levels.

As such the sorc getting a familiar at first level should be listed as an advantage that they have. Familiars are similar to psicrystals, but they have some fundamental differences.

Otherwise perhaps we should list every time the sorc gets to swap out a spell as a seperate advantage as well. No, they arent the same scale, but then we arent listing the scale of the advantage right?

P11: Augmented Psion powers tend to increase the DC for each 2 points put in. Sorcerer spells have the same DC as always. Note: I called this out as a different merit than P15 due to it being an extra augmentation that many powers have in addition to other augmentations. In other words, the Psion gets the equivalent of Heighten Spell feat for many of his powers without taking such a feat.

If the psion puts in no extra pp then the dc does not go up, if the sorc does not use a higher level slot then the dc does not go up. That sounds a lot like a wash.

Heighten has other benefits besides raising dc, although not many that is true. But then, psionics doesnt get heighten so they only get to even have the option for a specific subset of powers and not whichever they want to use it on.

In other words, the sorc could use it wherever he likes and gain the advantage of it being higher level whereas the psion does not get to choose what it works on but can get other benefits (which also balance out the lack of scaling issue).

Sounds like a wash. Especially when some powers get higher dc for 3 or even 4 pp instead of 2.

P12: Psion powers more than get the equivalent of the Still Spell feat for all powers. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers.

P13: Psion powers get most of and more than the equivalent advantages of the Silent Spell feat. PP does not need to be added to get this effect like a spell level needs to be added for Sorcerers. Psions do need to concentrate to minimize Displays, but even with that, this is still advantage Psion since Sorcerers can only take Still Spell feat and use up a higher slot. The do not get the option of silencing their spells with a Concentration roll.

P14: Psion powers get more than the equivalent of the Eschew Materials feat. Many Sorcerer spells have material components that are worth more than 1 GP.

In the last 'many' is highly ambiguous. A number out of the 377 choices that they have would be good.

I suppose that to be fair the sorc should get the advantages of:

The sorc gets his spells without the auditory component (lots of humming which can be loud or quiet, but this has actual defined rules associated with it unlike verbal.. strong is highly ambiguous) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the material component (subject or area is covered in goo) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the mental component (chiming in peoples minds) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the olfactory component (whats that smell?) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the visual component (glowing eyes and rainbow flashes? uh oh!) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.

P15: Special Augmentation: Psion powers often are the base line equivalent of a Sorcerer’s spell, but then augment into a power that is more powerful than the baseline spell. I include in this most special augmentations including Quickening the power.

A few, 'such as these powers' would be a good addition here. 'Often' is again a bit leading, a solid number is much more helpful. The more examples of this happening the better, preferably a list of them all.

P16: Psions can gain special abilities via feats that can often be used the vast majority of the time (some are limited to reacquiring the focus) which Sorcerers cannot get without taking a spell (which have shorter durations) or taking a level in a different class, but most often, not at all. These include Expanded Knowledge, Overchannel, Psionic Body, Psionic Dodge, resolving normal attacks as touch attacks via Unavoidable Strike, Fell Shot, or Deep Impact, Speed of Thought, and Up the Walls. I lumped most of the Psionic special feat abilities into this one merit because the extra feats were called out above (see P7 through P10) in individual merits and some of these abilities cannot be used simultaneously. Another way of looking at this is that Psions get the Wild Talent feat for free.

Well, aquiring focus pretty much negates the first part.

Again, 'vast majority' is leading, especially when your examples make this not true. Focus is a huge limiting factor between time, required feats, and a skill check (or two).

I guess I can go through each of the feats though.

As you yourself have shown (although the numbers seem off) even with exanded knowledge the psion still has many fewer choices than the sorc.
Overchannel does a good amount of damage to the psion (without spending yet more feats and focus and limited power useage then) and the free scaling issue helps cut into this problem. The psion, at that point, has to pay in a few different ways. But it is a very nice feat! Although costly.
Psionic body you basically limit yourself to only being able to choose psionic feats. I know we arent looking at noncore, but improved toughness is 'much' better and still isnt even an impressive feat.
Psionic dodge requires dodge and doesnt make either feat any good, it is still horrible ;/ Dodge is no good and psionic dodge is even worse because of the prereqs.
I dont know what to say about one touch attack per round which also kills your ability to make full attacks unless you dont like doing it very often.. it isnt like a psion is a powerhouse of weapon damage dealing.. a touch attack helps offset the poor bab.

Then again, most of these the sorc could get anyway, so they arent a psionic advantage in the feats, they are a psionic advantage in that it might take the psion one less feat in order to start getting them all. But then that only means that psions have a pseudo class feature that anyone can gain access to.

All in all, definately a psionic advantage. Although it is good to note that sorcs can get it as well. Which mean that the whole advantage comes down to, 'psions have an easier time using psionic feats than sorcs'.

P17: Psionic Energy powers are superior to Sorcerer Energy spells. The Psion can change the energy type, or choose a different energy type for a different saving throw type (note: the difference in damage is handled in E5). Sorcerers cannot do this at all in core rules (and need magic items or feats to do it outside of core rules).

With archmage the sorc can not only change energy types, he gets more choices and doesnt suffer from the damage penalty for sonic damage.

But then sorcs get force damage much easier and much more efficiently so I guess that is another:

#S: Sorcs get access to easier and more efficient force damage.

Force is generally superior to energy

P18: Psions can get Greater Psionic Penetration for a +8 bonus and they can even get it at first level.

As a mod has made some comments about this I'll probably make a thread about it later. Suffice it to say though I disagree with your conclusion.

P19: Psions have direct "action gain powers" which Sorcerers rarely have access to. Examples of these include Quicken Power, Schism (4th), Temporal Acceleration (6th), and Fission (7th). Effectively what they do is give the psion more actions per combat than his opponents. Sorcerers ability to do this directly tends to be limited to Time Stop (which is a 9th level spell).

Sorcs do this in other ways as pointed out.. such as slow and haste. They arent directly actions, but they have abilities which grant other bonuses which, in some ways, add up to the same thing.

It was pointed out already, but it is important to note in this one. I know that the 'support spells' is listed elsewhere, but this number is about 'action gain powers'.

P20: Psions have powers to directly heal themselves. Sorcerers have to rely upon indirect effects like polymorph or summoning creatures that can heal at very high level.

Polymorph heals for 1hp/hd and it is 4th level.
The psion healing power is 5th level and heals d12 hp (augmentable by +2pp = +1d12)

Say that they are both 17th level.
The sorc uses a 4th level spell slot, gains 17 hp, and maybe can use the form to do something useful.. possibly
The psion pops 17 pp (9th level equivalent) and heals 45.5 hp and does nothing else.

If the sorc casts 3 4th level spells it heals more damage.

Which is more powerful in general, 3 4th level spells or 1 9th level spell?

Especially as you have argued before that sorcs dont care about spells below level 7 once they are casting 9th level spells.. sounds like free healing at that point

Then again, the sorc could use a summon monster 9 and summon a creature that can heal like this for 17 rounds (as a 17th level caster with no other abilities to boost this, which there are several): lay on hands for 114 (more if the sorc has augmented summoning), heal spell (10th level caster), 3 cure criticals, at will polymorph = 502 hp on average.

But all of that says the same thing you did: psions can heal themselves directly and sorcs can summon people at higher level to heal.

What isnt said though is that the sorcs is much more efficient and has utility and combat use. Why is that a psion advantage when the sorc is better at it?

P22: Psions get more "mega-powers" than Sorcerers get "mega-spells". In other words, powers or spells which are extremely powerful and cost XP because of it, typically 8th or 9th level.

Care to list what powers you are talking about? As is, this is a point without a point. One could just as easily say that sorcs get more 'mega-spells' than psioncs get 'mega-powers' or in other words the sorcs get horribly overpowered spells that cost no exp while the psion gets underpowered powers that do cost exp.

See where the problem is?

P23: Astral Constucts are most levels are better combat creatures than Summoned creatures.

'Better' is ill defined. In what way are they better?

Many summons get some very interesting spell like abilities which are useful in combat and can provide lots of combat options that astral constructs cannot (such as fearing an ememy, causing mass sickness, or being generally illusive with things like hide in plain site so they can arrange themselves in the combat better).

I am guessing that you mean AC in general. It is good to list the summons advantages then as well, such as SR and better saves, along with more baseline resistances.. the constructs also have the construct type which has advantages and disadvantages (most notable of the disadvantages is lack of intelligence vs some of the summons being brilliant).




These are mainly just a few things I thought needed extra clarification and wording corrections

 

[Scion]

Only a slight limitation though - although you can't just churn it out you CAN do it, while a sorcerer simply can't.

focus requires a lot of work to get it to do something.. and if the psion is quickening then he likely has spent another feat, makes one or two skill checks, and isnt going to be using focus for something else.. such as empower. Plus, it means that the psion is using a move action and a free action for the power..

yes, it is something that they cant do, but it is basically trading using a metamagic on his other power for the round plus his move action in order to get a quickened power off.

It is important to know the tradeoffs

Similarly Schism. It is so useful that any psion I have is likely to get it with expanded knowledge as soon as it becomes available. Extra actions of any type are better than gold dust.

I'd love to hear what you have to say about this power once you start using it.

Spend a feat to gain, at level 9, an extra power manifested at manifestor level 3. Of course you only get that extra power the round after you manifest schism, so you traded a standard action with your primary mind for several potentail powers manifested at 6 levels lower starting next round.

So when you start using it I'd love to hear how it goes!

The sorcerer never has any option to do anything like those three extra-action things using his core abilities.

The metamagic rods that he can use I'd say are better options than what the psion can do.