The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[KarinsDad]

That's fine then--whether you add a Sorcerer advantage or cancel out the Psion one, I think that's fair either way.

Except canceling out the Psion advantage would not be equitable. It is an advantage. It is not apples to apples with Summoning, hence, they should both be in the list.

I'd like to add that although I seem to be only posting where I find fault, I do find this process to be fair and balanced with those few notable exceptions. Just thought I'd post that because imo it is easy to forget that when we focus on trying to improve the faults we see in the list.

Thanks.

Now, it's time for me to scour the Psion lists to find entire groups of powers that Sorcerers just cannot match.

Just kidding.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you are counting powers with no equivalent spells as an advantage for psions then you need to calculate again - since there are more than 100 sorcerer spells than powers - so no matter how you cut it from that stand point the advantage is on the sorcerer side.

Handled by S7.

 

[KarinsDad]

E7 – I think it has been proven mostly that Astral Construct is more powerful (at least at lower levels) than the summon monster spells. At higher levels it is most likely a wash (e.g., Summon Monster VII +). Still I’d put this as an advantage P, if only because it is a 1st level power that in order to duplicate (or come close) its effects a sorcerer would have to have up to 9 spells.

I'm going back through the thread and trying to clean up.

Since I put a Summon Monsters advantage for Sorcerers for versatility, I will put in an Astral Construct advantage for combat ability for Psions and because one power takes the place of multiple spells.

However, I'm going to keep E7 because the hedging out issue is different.

 

[KarinsDad]

Also, you do not seem to have noted, that Sorcerers have more party-friendly spells, which can be used to affect allies.

Added. Thanks.

 

[Thanee]

Hmm... maybe it would be a good idea to make two sub-lists each, one with general items, which always have an impact, and one with specific issues with single or few powers/spells and such, which only apply in some cases, but then are significant enough to warrant an item in the list.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

P12, 13 are much better than still and silent feats, since they are automatically present with no increase in spell level. A sorcerer would have to use a slot 2 levels higher for every spell he wanted to cast still & silent, psions get it for free.

Upgraded it. Thanks.

 

[nameless]

Two things that aren't being brought up in favor of the sorceror:

1. Far superior staying power. A psion can manifest more powers that are effectively his highest level (through augmentation), but to really be effective, a vast majority of his combat powers NEED to be fully augmented.

A sorceror can't throw his highest level spells as many times as a psion, but his spells that are a level or two below max can be at least as effective. And then he still has all of his low-level utility spells that are basically freebies.

2. The Wiz/Sor spell list is more powerful and versatile than the Psion list. For direct damage-dealing, Psions have ostensibly better powers like Hail of Crystals, the Energy ___ powers, and Astral Construct. Psions don't have equivalents to staple spells like Evard's Black Tentacles or Rope Trick. Psions don't really have any buff spells that affect other people. Astral Constructs are good meat shields, but don't have many of the immunities, spell-like abilities, and unique powers that Summon Monster can duplicate.

Psions have the bread-and-butter powers, but Sorcerors have the interesting spells that make them more than damage-fountain for the party.

 

[KarinsDad]

Two things that aren't being brought up in favor of the sorceror:

1. Far superior staying power. A psion can manifest more powers that are effectively his highest level (through augmentation), but to really be effective, a vast majority of his combat powers NEED to be fully augmented.

Handled by S5.

I was looking for the phrase to put into that merit that sums it up and I think "staying power" works. Thanks.

A sorceror can't throw his highest level spells as many times as a psion, but his spells that are a level or two below max can be at least as effective. And then he still has all of his low-level utility spells that are basically freebies.

Handled by S5.

2. The Wiz/Sor spell list is more powerful and versatile than the Psion list. For direct damage-dealing, Psions have ostensibly better powers like Hail of Crystals, the Energy ___ powers, and Astral Construct. Psions don't have equivalents to staple spells like Evard's Black Tentacles or Rope Trick. Psions don't really have any buff spells that affect other people.

Handled by S19.

Astral Constructs are good meat shields, but don't have many of the immunities, spell-like abilities, and unique powers that Summon Monster can duplicate.

Handled by S18.

Psions have the bread-and-butter powers, but Sorcerors have the interesting spells that make them more than damage-fountain for the party.

Handled by S10, S17, and S19.


I think we've covered most of your concerns already. If there is still something that doesn't seem to be in the list or if I did not understand what you meant by some of these, let us know.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

Both Psions and Sorcerers can effectively do all of the other schools of magic.

Umm... Necromancy?

 

[MatthewJHanson]

For the most part, I am not making a judgment as to whether a given merit is major, minor, or trivial.

Is the point of this thread to examine the question of whether psions and sorcerers are balanced? I ask because I think that in order to answer that question you have to look at the importance of the various merits.

I could easily make a thread that shows that the Fighter has more merits that a Cleric, but that I don't think anybody will argue that a Cleric is underpowered.