The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Scion]

I noticed that there were some spell categories in the pros and cons list.. I guess individual spells are out though?

Alter self outdoes many of the psionic buffing powers and it has other uses as well.

Pop up an alter self and change into a trog. you get 3 natural attacks and the feats to use it properly along with +6 natural armor all for 10 minutes/level.

Going back and forth with spells and powers may be too much for this thread, but this is an incredibly powerful spell and so might warrant a special mention.

Edit: not to mention the crazy forms one could play with on the familiar

 

[Someone]

(most notable of the disadvantages is lack of intelligence vs some of the summons being brilliant).

I try to stay away of debates like this, but anyway, here´s a minor nitpick. Since psions can direct their constructs to do what they want as a free action, the construct is basically acting with the psion´s intelligence. They do not have to act stupidly (unless the psion is an idiot)

Edit: anyway, I don´t think it´s been covered before (most likely yes, but I can´t find it): Sorcerers can stack damage augmentation and metamagic. For example, a 10th level sorcerer can cast a empowered fireball that does 10d6+1,5 damage, while a psion must choose between 10d6 energy ball or 8d6 empowered energy ball (not counting bonuses or penalties for choosing cold or fire)

 

[Scion]

I try to stay away of debates like this, but anyway, here´s a minor nitpick. Since psions can direct their constructs to do what they want as a free action, the construct is basically acting with the psion´s intelligence. They do not have to act stupidly (unless the psion is an idiot)

Talking is also a free action and picking up a couple of languages is a good plan in so many ways that it should just be assumed to be true.. or there are even magical ways around it or creatures who know common anyway (actually, are there even any summons who dont know common? hmm..)

Plus there are times when the creature may have to act independently.. such as if you cannot see what it is doing or what it is fighting (like if it can see an invisible creature but you cannot, it has to choose some tactics then).

Or if you tell a creature to do something but not how, step by step, a high int creature may come up with a creative solution whereas the construct, by definition, cannot.

These are things that wont necissarily happen all of the time, but they certainly can happen.

And in my experience they do happen. Especially if the one who summons the creature wants to get out of the line of fire (escaping, hiding, etc) or is forced out of the immediate useful area (placed in stasis, mazed, time hopped, walled in, etc).

Being able to use tactics vs. needing to be directed to do anything besides the most basic actions is something that should come up in games.. at least in my opinion Even opening a moderately complex door is beyond the construct without special guidance.

 

[irdeggman]

Here is very useful spell that sorcerer’s can get:

Project Image
Illusion (Shadow)
Level: Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: One shadow duplicate
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will disbelief (if interacted with)
Spell Resistance: No
You tap energy from the Plane of Shadow to create a quasi-real, illusory version of yourself. The projected image looks, sounds, and smells like you but is intangible. The projected image mimics your actions (including speech) unless you direct it to act differently (which is a move action).

You can see through its eyes and hear through its ears as if you were standing where it is, and during your turn you can switch from using its senses to using your own, or back again, as a free action. While you are using its senses, your body is considered blinded and deafened.

If you desire, any spell you cast whose range is touch or greater can originate from the projected image instead of from you. The projected image can’t cast any spells on itself except for illusion spells. The spells affect other targets normally, despite originating from the projected image.

Objects are affected by the projected image as if they had succeeded on their Will save.

You must maintain line of effect to the projected image at all times. If your line of effect is obstructed, the spell ends. If you use dimension door, teleport, plane shift, or a similar spell that breaks your line of effect, even momentarily, the spell ends.

Material Component: A small replica of you (a doll), which costs 5 gp to create.

Effectively it extends the range of any spell being cast since they now use the image as the source of origin. This would be of great advantage to a psion by allowing their normally shorter range manifestations to be extended in range.


Here’s something that is often brought up as too powerful a spell:

Shapechange

Egoists can get metamorphosis, greater (essentially the same effect) – but since it is a 9th level power, it is only available to egoists.

So advantage sorcerer, since any sorcerer can take this one and not have to “specialize” like psions do.

 

[KarinsDad]

I havent counted the sorc spells, but I did just count the psion powers.. before the discipline the psion has 162 power choices. Domains usually add 16 more on average. Where is 277 coming from?

I suppose if you counted expanded knowledge you could could all of the psychic warrior powers as well you would get a few more, but there is a lot of overlap. Plus, in order to get those you have to be high enough level and spend a feat. Which means if that is where the number comes from then it is more than a little misleading.

Can they get the power? Yes. Ok. We can nitpick things to death, but I won't.

Of course, sorcs dont have this with spells that have no somatic components either. Definately a psion advantage, but not listed as the full story.

Nitpick. All 5 or 6 Sorcerers spells that do this?

Come on Scion.

I dont really think this should be listed as several different advantages, rather a single advantage of getting 5 bonus feats over 20 levels.

As such the sorc getting a familiar at first level should be listed as an advantage that they have. Familiars are similar to psicrystals, but they have some fundamental differences.

Otherwise perhaps we should list every time the sorc gets to swap out a spell as a seperate advantage as well. No, they arent the same scale, but then we arent listing the scale of the advantage right?

Been discussed already. They are 5 unique feats.

Do you want to lump free Wild Talent, Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials into those 5 as well?

If the psion puts in no extra pp then the dc does not go up, if the sorc does not use a higher level slot then the dc does not go up. That sounds a lot like a wash.

Heighten has other benefits besides raising dc, although not many that is true. But then, psionics doesnt get heighten so they only get to even have the option for a specific subset of powers and not whichever they want to use it on.

In other words, the sorc could use it wherever he likes and gain the advantage of it being higher level whereas the psion does not get to choose what it works on but can get other benefits (which also balance out the lack of scaling issue).

Sounds like a wash. Especially when some powers get higher dc for 3 or even 4 pp instead of 2.

Except one is free and the other is Heighten Spell feat. Free versus bought.

In the last 'many' is highly ambiguous. A number out of the 377 choices that they have would be good.

I suppose that to be fair the sorc should get the advantages of:

The sorc gets his spells without the auditory component (lots of humming which can be loud or quiet, but this has actual defined rules associated with it unlike verbal.. strong is highly ambiguous) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the material component (subject or area is covered in goo) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the mental component (chiming in peoples minds) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the olfactory component (whats that smell?) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.
The sorc gets his spells without the visual component (glowing eyes and rainbow flashes? uh oh!) without having to spend extra feats or spell slots or etc.

Differences does not mean advantages. Psions can turn off their Displays. Sorcerers cannot turn off their components without feats.

It is nowhere near equal.

A few, 'such as these powers' would be a good addition here. 'Often' is again a bit leading, a solid number is much more helpful. The more examples of this happening the better, preferably a list of them all.

Someone else listed the numbers in the thread. You can find them there. This thread has served its purpose.

And, I do not want to explain each and every one. We could be at that all year.

You are not really bringing up that many new points that other people have not already brought up in this thread.

 

[Scion]

Can they get the power? Yes. Ok. We can nitpick things to death, but I won't.

The number is wrong either way.

But, if you are going to count it in that fashion then your comparison point is rendered void. At the very least you should put in a qualifier otherwise it is completely misleading.

Nitpick. All 5 or 6 Sorcerers spells that do this?

Blindness/Deafness, Blur, charm monster, mass charm monster, contact other plane, darkness, dimension door, displacement, feather fall, flare, lesser geas, geas/quest, irresistable dance, knock, light, disjunction, phase door, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic sphere, shout, suggestion, teleport, teleportation circle, time stop, tongues, true strike, Ventriloquism, wail of the banshee, and wish.

Decent spell list, a sorc could have a rather large portion of his spells be lacking in the somatic component and still have a pretty good spell list. Especially for a combat oriented sorc. Take off the armor, put up a few long lasting spells which have somatic components, put it back on and have a decent amount of spells to use otherwise.

But, it wouldnt matter even if there was only a single spell that didnt have somatic, it is an important distinction to note.

Been discussed already. They are 5 unique feats.

yeah, it was discussed, but it wasnt changed therefore the issue still exists.

Do you want to lump free Wild Talent, Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials into those 5 as well?

Since you are making these up yourself I dont care much where you lump them.

Except one is free and the other is Heighten Spell feat. Free versus bought.

Choice vs. lack of choice. Heighten has some extra bonuses. The scaling issue with augmentation is made up for in other areas as well.

There are a lot of balance issues here.

We are looking for the overall picture here, so ignoring things just makes it not work very well.

Differences does not mean advantages. Psions can turn off their Displays. Sorcerers cannot turn off their components without feats.

It is nowhere near equal.

Since when are we looking for equal? I was saying that if you mention one you have to mention the other. To do otherwise is to make the comparison useless.

Someone else listed the numbers in the thread. You can find them there. This thread has served its purpose.

insufficiently, especially as you apparently copied just the 'list' but not the 'explanation' into the other thread.

You are not really bringing up that many new points that other people have not already brought up in this thread.

Some new points, some points of contention, and a few areas which have to be cleared up for the list to even be useful at all.

This thread is far from complete if you want to use its results elsewhere. If you really want to have a decent list with which to base conclusions off of it needs to be done properly.

 

[KarinsDad]

The number is wrong either way.

But, if you are going to count it in that fashion then your comparison point is rendered void. At the very least you should put in a qualifier otherwise it is completely misleading.

Void? Misleading?

There are 277 Psionic powers. A given Psion can get any of those except 9th level non-discipline.

He has access to about 267 or 268 powers including all of the Psychic Warrior powers. I'll change the number to ~267. Done.

It is not whether it is easy to access those, it is that he can.

If you want me to list it as a Sorcerer advantage that Sorcerers get more to choose from ~375 vs ~175++ and a second Psion advantage that Psions can pick from the non-discipline lists including the list from an entire different class, I can do so.

No other core classes can pick spells from a different class.

Even when you point out the minutia like this, all you do is yet again illustrate how potent Psions really are.

Blindness/Deafness, Blur, charm monster, mass charm monster, contact other plane, darkness, dimension door, displacement, feather fall, flare, lesser geas, geas/quest, irresistable dance, knock, light, disjunction, phase door, power word blind, power word kill, power word stun, prismatic sphere, shout, suggestion, teleport, teleportation circle, time stop, tongues, true strike, Ventriloquism, wail of the banshee, and wish.

Decent spell list, a sorc could have a rather large portion of his spells be lacking in the somatic component and still have a pretty good spell list. Especially for a combat oriented sorc. Take off the armor, put up a few long lasting spells which have somatic components, put it back on and have a decent amount of spells to use otherwise.

But, it wouldnt matter even if there was only a single spell that didnt have somatic, it is an important distinction to note.

Important? 100% of powers versus 31 spells out of 375 or less than 9% of spells?

It's still a Psion advantage. What you said here does not come close to changing that fact.

Your entire point here is mostly trivial. It's not really that important. It doesn't change the fact that psions have a significant advantage here. It is only important to you because you for some reason want to illustrate that the advantage is a little bit tinier than the merit indicates.

I won't be discussing this with you anymore unless you come up with real advantages. Going into the minutia of the ones we have already listed doesn't accomplish anything. All it does is argue about minutia (my new word for this post ).

 

[Scion]

Void? Misleading?

There are 277 Psionic powers. A given Psion can get any of those except 9th level non-discipline.

He has access to about 267 or 268 powers including all of the Psychic Warrior powers. I'll change the number to ~267. Done.

It is not whether it is easy to access those, it is that he can.

If you want me to list it as a Sorcerer advantage that Sorcerers get more to choose from ~375 vs ~175++ and a second Psion advantage that Psions can pick from the non-discipline lists including the list [g]from an entire different class[/b], I can do so.

162 choices plus an average of 16 from the discipline.

So yes, saying otherwise is misleading.

There is a method to get some extra powers but at a later level and with a heavy cost and this has to be taken into account.

Although, even if that wasnt the case, the sheer number of spells that the sorc has access to allows for a greater combination of abilities and therefore can make for a larger amount of power.

And I guess that all depends on how you look at 'an entire different class' and 'access'. After all, there are spells that both bards and sorcs can use and they are different classes.

If we look to sources other than the core then we have extra spell and domain access and a few others.

No other core classes can pick spells from a different class.

Other than, say, clerics?

Even when you point out the minutia like this, all you do is yet again illustrate how potent Psions really are.

These are important distinctions. Your disdain of them only shows that your conclusion will be flawed.

Important? 100% of powers versus 31 spells out of 375 or less than 9% of spells?

Yes, it is important.

To ignore it is to invalidate the comparison.

It's still a Psion advantage. What you said here does not come close to changing that fact.

Nor should it. But arent we trying to see the big picture here?

Ignoring important items ignores the big picture.

From the rest of your post it looks like you arent actually interested in the big picture. Unfortunate.

Hopefully no one will take this thread seriously until it gets rounded out properly.

 

[KarinsDad]

Other than, say, clerics?

Clerics do not pick spells from other classes.

They pick a domain which may or may not have spells from another class.

They cannot just say "Hey, you know what? Globe of Invulnerability and Power Word Stun look like good spells. I'm going to get those."

Psions can do that type of thing.

 

[Scion]

Clerics do not pick spells from other classes.

They pick a domain which may or may not have spells from another class.

They cannot just say "Hey, you know what? Globe of Invulnerability and Power Word Stun look like good spells. I'm going to get those."

Psions can do that type of thing.

Psions spend a feat, clerics get two domains right off the bat and get the spells earlier than the psion would plus more.

Clerics domains have spells from other classes.

You are placing restrictions on some areas and none in others even with items that are similar.

Lesser choice but many, many more spells given vs. greater choice but much more limited.

But then, all my comment did was disprove one of yours, as what you said was not true.