The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[irdeggman]

Uhm? That's two completely different things.

One grants extra actions. Works always.
The other prevents the opponent from doing something and is resistable.

Bye
Thanee

Quicken Power is a feat (that makes the count of psion feats as an advantage , what 9 or ten times now? One for each bonus feat and then the others that say their feats are more powerful. Oh yeah and since it expends the focus it is limited in its application. Either it takes a move action to regain focus (with an additional feat) or a full round action which creates the inability to manifest any powers that round.

Schism (4th) (Telepath)
Temporal Accelaration (6th) (1 round plus 1 rd/4 pp)
Fission (7th) (egoist)

So of the 3 powers listed (I seem to recall that in one instance there needed to be a substantial amount of spells to justify an advantage (1 half dozen was the number I recall being used several times.)

A psion can have either Schism or Fission but not both without using a feat. Oh wait that is yet another credit to having bonus feats.

 

[Thanee]

A psion can have either Schism or Fission but not both without using a feat. Oh wait that is yet another credit to having bonus feats.

I actually agree with you with some of the stuff you imply here (as I said above already), but the action-gain powers (especially Schism) are a special case worth listing, since it is something, which goes directly against decisions the core designers made when they wrote the 3.5 edition. It's extremely bad game design.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dinkeldog]

Clearly, then, an action-gaining spell like Monster Summoning IV (Lantern Archon) which allows for extra actions should never have been allowed in the game. What bad game design.

And it allows a sorcerer to cast the gamebreaking Aid (healing) over and over without even expending his own power to do so.

Do you see my issue now, with saying that one or the other is overpowered?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Clearly, then, an action-gaining spell like Monster Summoning IV (Lantern Archon) which allows for extra actions should never have been allowed in the game. What bad game design.

And it allows a sorcerer to cast the gamebreaking Aid (healing) over and over without even expending his own power to do so.

Do you see my issue now, with saying that one or the other is overpowered?

You know, I never thought to compare Schism to summoning, but its actually quite apt--that's brilliant:

Both last 1 round/level.

Summon takes a full round and Schism takes a standard to cast.

Both give extra actions--Schism gives a standard and Summon gives a full round.

Both sets of actions are weaker than normal--Schism is like summoning the Psion 6 levels below himself, whereas Summon summons weaker monsters.

Schism spends the Psion's resources every time it takes an action, but Summoning doesn't.

Schism has access to every single one of the lower level powers of the Psion, but Summoning may give fewer, but it gives access to spells the caster doesn't even have.

Summoned monsters can be killed or banished, but Schism can be dispelled or ended by a mind-affecting spell.

 

[Thanee]

Clearly, then, an action-gaining spell like Monster Summoning IV (Lantern Archon) which allows for extra actions should never have been allowed in the game. What bad game design.

I'm pretty sure you understand the point better than this. You might not agree with it (seeing action-gaining, action-preventing, summoning as the same thing - the core designers seem to have a different view, tho), but that's not the same and I'm fairly sure you know the difference.

Bye
Thanee

 

[KarinsDad]

Here are other things I have trouble with in the listing, basically because they are counting the same advantage 2 or more times – thus skewing the data:

It doesn't skew the data if it is fairly consistently an additional advantage.

This is the fact that psions can augment their powers for special effects, some of which include increases the DC. But it is all part of the same advantage.

I stated why I broke it out. Increasing the DC occurs on a lot of augmented powers. That's REAL significant in game mechanics terms.

It's the equivalent of an additional feat Heighten Power on many of the powers.

You do not get to choose whether to increase the DC when augmenting or augment something else, you get both.

Hence, an additional advantage equivalent to a feat in this case.

My yardstick tends to be whether something is unique and has the power of a feat or the power of a special ability.

I added the fact that it is equivalent to Heighten Spell for free, just to clarify that it is because the Psion is getting a free feat for many powers that this is a merit.

Again, I make my argument from before. All of these “constantly on” ones are specifically obtainable by a sorcerer, by using feats.

Yes, he can get the constantly on ones with effort. And, he cannot use the non-constantly on ones.

But effectively what this boils down to is that the Psion get the Wild Talent pre-requisite feat for these for free.

How can that NOT be considered an advantage for the Psion?

If one class needs two feats to get something and another needs one, the class that needs one has an advantage.


I will continue to maintain that every single time one class or the other gets a feat or gets the use of a feat without purchasing the feat, it's a merit.

The advantage a psion has is that he has more feats with which to work from in obtaining these and that has already been laid out as a psion advantage.

Agreed.

This one is so skewed it is really aggravating me. The advantage that GPP has is only for a single shot kill. Rystal Ardin very sicicntly laid out that if it is not a single shot kill then the sorcerer will have an advantage. Regardless this should be wrapped up into the bonus feats advantage since the psion must chose which feats to have.

+8 is a serious advantage outside of normal game parameters. I won't discuss this anymore.

I think that the lower level spells laid out by me that increase the number of actions the sorcerer can have or reduce those that his opponent can have pretty clearly lay out this is not an advantage for a psion. IMO it is a wash.

Ghost touch (2nd level) – paralyzes opponent

Slow (3rd level) - reduces opponents actions

Hold Person (3rd level) – Paralyzed opponent

You ignore the fact that you have to affect an opponent to do these. Schism or Quicken Power are hard to disrupt and apply to the manifester.

The Quicken Power feat is huge at high level. And, the Psion also has powers which either Quicken by default (Intellect Fortress) or can be Quicken as part of the power.

Extra personal actions is different than taking out a foe so the enemies have less actions.

Psions can more easily manifest more than once per round. Sorcerers rarely can cast more than once per round. That is what this merit is about.

Apples and apples.

How about the power word spells?

Talk about overpowering.

Power Word, Blind (7th level).

Power Word, Stun (8th level)

No saves.

Good point.

Does the Psion have single target no save powers limited to a set number of hit points (i.e. typically only useful against lower level opponents) at high level that inconvenience an opponent for a number of rounds?

Psions can get Microcosm at 9th. It is permanent shy of magical countering (like Power Word Kill). It can also affect multiple creatures. So, it is more powerful than Power Word Kill for all intents and purposes.

Power Word Blind and Stun are inconvenience spells. The first does not prevent the opponent from taking actions, it just limits how useful his actions are. The second stuns him. Potent, but many other powers are just as potent, just in different ways. And, there are immunities to these (such as having high hit points, Spell Resistance, being immune to mind effecting spells, etc.).


I was actually going to add the Power Word series of spells to the list until I noticed that Microcosm negated and is even better than Power Word Kill. I'm trying to be impartial here, but one or two spells which do have defenses is not a big deal.

Find an entire group of spells. For example, I just thought of one. Illusion spells. Psions cannot do illusions. Advantage: Sorcerers.

I'll add this to the list.

Both Psions and Sorcerers can effectively do all of the other schools of magic.


And, we can nitpick individual powers or spellls all day long. For example, Psionic Revivify. Bringing someone back from the dead, even if it is not as good as the Divine abilities, still has extremely high unique utility. Psions can do it. Sorcerers cannot. I do not consider a single power worth a merit though. Both sides have cool spells or cool powers.

 

[KarinsDad]

Lets see you already give psions credit for extra skill twice:

P3: Although Psions get the same base skill points as Sorcerers, their primary ability score is Int, so they tend to average more skill points.

P4: Psions have 7 to 9 (depending on discipline) Class skills available plus they get all of the Knowledge skills as class skills. Sorcerers have 6 Class skills available.

How much more do you want to skew the system.

I added S16 "The Sorcerers primary ability score of Charisma adds to a wider variety of skills and feats. For example, the Leadership feat." which tends to cancel out P3.

But, please stop saying that I am skewing the system. That's insulting my integrity. If you persist, I will ask the moderators to ask you to desist or to stop posting in this thread.

 

[KarinsDad]

You know, I never thought to compare Schism to summoning, but its actually quite apt--that's brilliant:

Both last 1 round/level.

Summon takes a full round and Schism takes a standard to cast.

Both give extra actions--Schism gives a standard and Summon gives a full round.

Both sets of actions are weaker than normal--Schism is like summoning the Psion 6 levels below himself, whereas Summon summons weaker monsters.

Schism spends the Psion's resources every time it takes an action, but Summoning doesn't.

Schism has access to every single one of the lower level powers of the Psion, but Summoning may give fewer, but it gives access to spells the caster doesn't even have.

Summoned monsters can be killed or banished, but Schism can be dispelled or ended by a mind-affecting spell.

The only way to stop Schism is to dispel it (possibly through a will save spell / power) or conciously incapitate the manifester.

There are boatloads of ways to stop summoned creatures. Apples and Oranges.


I do think that Summoned Creatures give Sorcerers an edge with spells he cannot normally cast and I will add that to the list since there are many Summon spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

I am rather pro-psion, but the problem I have with the bonus feat issue is that I have always considered the sorcerer's lack of them to be a design flaw. The Cleric and the Sorcerer are the only two base classes that gain no bonuses (special abilities or feats) after first level.

The cleric as most people figure it is a powerhouse, but the poor sorcerer is rather frail with few chances to enhance the only thing they have going for them. Most everyone I've seen here who works with sorcerers claim that they should be the metamagic masters. My thought is give them the bonus feats to make use of the metamagics.

As it stands now, yes the Psion bonus feats are huge advantages for the psion, but that is not the fault of the psion being overpowered.

I've always consider Sorcerers to be overpowered without bonus abilities.

Spontaneous casting and spontaneous metamagic casting are very useful. Giving Sorcerers a lot more metamagic will just make them take the place of Clerics as the powerhouse of the system.

Ask Thanee what his Sorcerer is capable of compared to his fellow PCs.

I suspect he does more than his fair share of the work in a wide variety of ways.

But, this is a discussion for a different thread.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The only way to stop Schism is to dispel it (possibly through a will save spell / power) or conciously incapitate the manifester.

There are boatloads of ways to stop summoned creatures. Apples and Oranges.


I do think that Summoned Creatures give Sorcerers an edge with spells he cannot normally cast and I will add that to the list since there are many Summon spells.

That's fine then--whether you add a Sorcerer advantage or cancel out the Psion one, I think that's fair either way.

I'd like to add that although I seem to be only posting where I find fault, I do find this process to be fair and balanced with those few notable exceptions. Just thought I'd post that because imo it is easy to forget that when we focus on trying to improve the faults we see in the list.