The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Plane Sailing]

Dismissing this outright is plane ridiculous.

I'm sorry? Is someone making fun of me here

 

[irdeggman]

Heh. Admittedly, I also wondered why KD listed each bonus feat seperately.

Bye
Thanee

Me too.

And yet the fact that a sorcerer can swaps spells is only listed once while he can do it 7 times.

Now, IMO the bonus feats is a greater value than the swapping spells - but if we are not applying a weighted system here then "everything" needs to be counted. If a psion gets bonus feats counted 5 times then sorcerers should get swapping spells counted 7 times jut to be fair.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Of course, the main purpose of this thread isn't to "prove" anything one way or another - it is just an attempt to bring together a big picture look at the issue of psions vs sorcerers, so that anyone who hasn't yet made their mind up can weigh up all the issues for themselves. Some people may move from one camp to the other, others won't, but that doesn't matter.

It still remains a very valuable thread for anyone who would like to think through some of the issues for themselves.

Cheers

 

[KarinsDad]

Me too.

And yet the fact that a sorcerer can swaps spells is only listed once while he can do it 7 times.

Now, IMO the bonus feats is a greater value than the swapping spells - but if we are not applying a weighted system here then "everything" needs to be counted. If a psion gets bonus feats counted 5 times then sorcerers should get swapping spells counted 7 times jut to be fair.

And then, each extra class skill that the Psion has should each be listed once.

Just to be fair.


Another point on this is that the Psion can use Psychic Reformation to swap more than 7 times. Plus, he can swap feats and skill, not just powers. Granted, he has to pay for it with XP and gaining a specific power. But, he has more options. Hence, it is one merit for Sorcerer because it is cheaper, counterbalanced by the fact that the Psion can do it as well.


There is no way for the Sorcerer to gain an extra feat shy of going into a Prestige Class (which too, a Psion can do).

 

[irdeggman]

Here are other things I have trouble with in the listing, basically because they are counting the same advantage 2 or more times – thus skewing the data:

P11: Augmented Psion powers tend to increase the DC for each 2 points put in. Sorcerer spells have the same DC as always. Note: I called this out as a different merit than P15 due to it being an extra augmentation that many powers have in addition to other augmentations

P15: Special Augmentation: Psion powers often are the base line equivalent of a Sorcerer’s spell, but then augment into a power that is more powerful than the baseline spell. I include in this most special augmentations including Quickening the power.

This is the fact that psions can augment their powers for special effects, some of which include increases the DC. But it is all part of the same advantage.

P16: Psions can gain special abilities via feats that can often be used the vast majority of the time (some are limited to reacquiring the focus) which Sorcerers cannot get without taking a spell (which have shorter durations) or taking a level in a different class, but most often, not at all. These include Expanded Knowledge, Overchannel, Psionic Body, Psionic Dodge, resolving normal attacks as touch attacks via Unavoidable Strike, Fell Shot, or Deep Impact, Speed of Thought, and Up the Walls. I lumped most of the Psionic special feat abilities into this one merit because the extra feats were called out above (see P7 through P10) in individual merits and some of these abilities cannot be used simultaneously.

Again, I make my argument from before. All of these “constantly on” ones are specifically obtainable by a sorcerer, by using feats. The advantage a psion has is that he has more feats with which to work from in obtaining these and that has already been laid out as a psion advantage.

P18: Psions can get Greater Psionic Penetration for a +8 bonus and they can even get it at first level. I’m explicitly calling this feat out as a separate merit because of how powerful it is. I also know that people will disagree with this and claim that they’d rather have +4 with Greater Spell Penetration all of the time than +8 with Greater Psionic Penetration some of the time, but this is not very realistic within the large scheme of things (due to the fact that there are ways to get back a Psionic Focus quickly and Psions have the extra feats to do that). First off, 40% of Psionic Powers (all powers, not just Psion, but the percentage for just Psions is higher) are affected by this, about 25% of Sorcerer spells are affected. Secondly, what this means in the game is a given creature with Spell Resistance might have a 50% chance with no penetration, 30% chance with Greater Spell Penetration, and 10% with Greater Power Penetration. This almost totally blows away the protection of the creature (and in some cases, does blow it away down to 0%). That extra 20% is quite large and you’ll note that there is virtually nothing in the game that changes the percentage on a D20 by 40%. This is a glaring exception to the normal +1 to +5 bonus rules.

This one is so skewed it is really aggravating me. The advantage that GPP has is only for a single shot kill. Rystal Ardin very sicicntly laid out that if it is not a single shot kill then the sorcerer will have an advantage. Regardless this should be wrapped up into the bonus feats advantage since the psion must chose which feats to have.

P19: Psions have direct "action gain powers" which Sorcerers rarely have access to. Examples of these include Quicken Power, Schism (4th), Temporal Acceleration (6th), and Fission (7th). Effectively what they do is give the psion more actions per combat than his opponents. Sorcerers ability to do this directly tends to be limited to Time Stop (which is a 9th level spell).

I think that the lower level spells laid out by me that increase the number of actions the sorcerer can have or reduce those that his opponent can have pretty clearly lay out this is not an advantage for a psion. IMO it is a wash.

Ghost touch (2nd level) – paralyzes opponent

Slow (3rd level) - reduces opponents actions

Hold Person (3rd level) – Paralyzed opponent


How about the power word spells?

Talk about overpowering.

Power Word, Blind (7th level).

Power Word, Stun (8th level)

No saves.

 

[Thanee]

Now, IMO the bonus feats is a greater value than the swapping spells - but if we are not applying a weighted system here then "everything" needs to be counted. If a psion gets bonus feats counted 5 times then sorcerers should get swapping spells counted 7 times jut to be fair.

Yep, the swapping is mostly a means to keep the spells up to date (i.e. to be able to learn a spell at lower levels, which will be useless at higher levels, since you can swap it out). Psions don't need this to the same degree, since pretty much all their powers are useful through all levels.

Anyways, since the individual items are not weighed by significance, I see no reason to list similar items several times. 5 bonus feats is one item. Quite likely a very significant one, but still one.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

I think that the lower level spells laid out by me that increase the number of actions the sorcerer can have or reduce those that his opponent can have pretty clearly lay out this is not an advantage for a psion. IMO it is a wash.

Uhm? That's two completely different things.

One grants extra actions. Works always.
The other prevents the opponent from doing something and is resistable.

Bye
Thanee

 

[irdeggman]

And then, each extra class skill that the Psion has should each be listed once.

Just to be fair.

Lets see you already give psions credit for extra skill twice:

P3: Although Psions get the same base skill points as Sorcerers, their primary ability score is Int, so they tend to average more skill points.

P4: Psions have 7 to 9 (depending on discipline) Class skills available plus they get all of the Knowledge skills as class skills. Sorcerers have 6 Class skills available.

How much more do you want to skew the system.

I would say to list bonus feats once, and swapping spells once.

If/when we get down to weighting them it is obvious that bonus feats is more significant, IMO.

 

[Rystil Arden]

This one is so skewed it is really aggravating me. The advantage that GPP has is only for a single shot kill. Rystal Ardin very sicicntly laid out that if it is not a single shot kill then the sorcerer will have an advantage. Regardless this should be wrapped up into the bonus feats advantage since the psion must chose which feats to have.

We agreed not to talk about this any more though. I will admit that I'm not going to consider this list to be unbiased or authoritative while that particular item is listed, but this is KD's thread, so he gets to make the choice, ultimately.

Anyways, since the individual items are not weighed by significance, I see no reason to list similar items several times. 5 bonus feats is one item. Quite likely a very significant one, but still one.

I agree, and another consideration--unlike most of these factors, which are true balance factors for the classes throughout most levels of play, that bonus feat at 20th-level won't come into play in almost any game. If I made a class called Diamond in the Rough that was the same as a Commoner from level 1 through 19 but at level 20 suddenly gained the combined casting ability of a Wizard 20 and Cleric 20, listing the abilities in a flat way like this would make it seem to be a powerful class.

 

[Dracomeander]

Note: On the feat issue, I find it amazing that people consider feats such a huge thing that many players will take a Human character, just to get one more feat at first level, but here, they are suddenly trivial. If Sorcerers got extra feats and psions did not, I would bet good money that the pro-psion people would not have a problem with me ranking one feat = one merit as an issue.

A feat is a special ability that nobody else has unless they too take the feat. For example, crafting an item. Nobody else in the game can do that unless they take that feat. Spells, typically, do not give you that same advantage although they can emulate some feats or even do the same thing plus more, often for shorter periods of time.

Feats are special. You only get so many of them in the game. To trivialize them into 5 feats = 1 merit is not impartial.

If you want to do that, you have an agenda.

I am rather pro-psion, but the problem I have with the bonus feat issue is that I have always considered the sorcerer's lack of them to be a design flaw. The Cleric and the Sorcerer are the only two base classes that gain no bonuses (special abilities or feats) after first level.

The cleric as most people figure it is a powerhouse, but the poor sorcerer is rather frail with few chances to enhance the only thing they have going for them. Most everyone I've seen here who works with sorcerers claim that they should be the metamagic masters. My thought is give them the bonus feats to make use of the metamagics.

As it stands now, yes the Psion bonus feats are huge advantages for the psion, but that is not the fault of the psion being overpowered.