The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Nail]

That's what happens when you let your players read the power themselves.

Mmmmfff. Tell me about it. :\

 

[Dinkeldog]

Agreed.

In any case, this merit is really based on Quicken Power, Schism, and Temporal Acceleration. I'll pull TIme Hop from it.

Psions can gain extra actions to prep or buff. Sorcerers do not.

Quicken Power expends focus and Schism is a Telepath-only power (and the second mind is 6 levels lower than the psion manifester level) which limits its usefulness two ways.

That leaves Temporal Acceleration. It might be true, then, that psions have greater control over time. But we're down to a single benefit.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Should the Leadership feat be mentioned? Since the leadership score is lvl + CHA bonus and CHA is the sorcerer's primary stat, sorcerers will get more powerful followers on average than the psion.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Quicken Power expends focus

Only a slight limitation though - although you can't just churn it out you CAN do it, while a sorcerer simply can't.

Similarly Schism. It is so useful that any psion I have is likely to get it with expanded knowledge as soon as it becomes available. Extra actions of any type are better than gold dust.

The sorcerer never has any option to do anything like those three extra-action things using his core abilities.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Sorcerers use CHA as the key ability score, right?

So INT + CHA if we're comparing sorcerers.

Actually WIS+CHA for sorcerers rather than INT+INT for cerebremancers.

 

[KarinsDad]

Actually WIS+CHA for sorcerers rather than INT+INT for cerebremancers.

Or INT+CHA for Cerebremancers.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Or INT+CHA for Cerebremancers.

Bit of a silly option to go psion/sorcerer though, rather than psion/wizard - multiple attribute dependency, extra level behind in getting arcane spells. Someone could of course - but then we've already agreed that the prestige class issue is pretty much even.

I'll not say anything more about cerebremancers.

 

[irdeggman]

Psion powers with exp cost

4th level (1 out of 17)
5th level (1 out of 12)
6th level (1 out of 12)
7th level (1 out of 12)
8th level (2 out of 8)
9th level (2 out of 7)

Total: 8 out of 161

Discipline Specific Powers with exp costs:
5 out of 6 disciplines have disciplines specific powers with exp costs with the telepath having the most.

Egoist:
5th level – 1
8th level – 1
9th level - 1

Shaper:
9th level – 2

Seer:
4th level – 1
9th level - 1

Telepath:
6th level – 1
8th level – 1
9th level – 2

Nomad:
9th level - 1

Psychic Reformation
Level: Psion/wilder 4
Power Points: 7, XP; see text
XP Cost: This power costs 50 XP to manifest to reformat choices made when the character reached her current level. For each additional previous level into which the revision reaches, the power costs an additional 50 XP. The manifester and subject split all XP costs evenly.

Incarnate
Level: Psion/wilder 5
Power Points: 9, XP (500 to 2,000)

Contingency, Psionic
Level: Psion/wilder 6
Power Points: 11, XP (15)

Sequester, Psionic
Level: Psion/wilder 7
Power Points: 13, XP
XP Cost: 75 XP

Bend Reality
Level: Psion/wilder 8
Power Points: 15, XP (300+)

Matter Manipulation
Level: Psion/wilder 8
Power Points: 15, XP (250/hardness point)

Apopsi
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Power Points: 17, XP (50/level of power deleted)

Reality Revision
Level: Psion/wilder 9
Power Points: 17, XP (5,000+)

Discipline specific powers:

Psionic Revivify
Level: Egoist 5
Power Points: 9, XP (200+)

Fusion
Level: Egoist 8
Power Points: 15, XP (50)

Metamorphosis, Greater
Level: Egoist 9
Power Points: 17, XP (200)

Genesis
Level: Shaper 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

True Creation
Level: Shaper 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1/5 gp value, 1+)

Remote Viewing
Level: Seer 4
Power Points: 7, XP (20)

Metafaculty
Level: Seer 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)

Mind Switch
Level: Telepath 6
Power Points: 11, XP (100)

Mind Seed
Level: Telepath 8
Power Points: 15, XP (3,000)

Mind Switch, True
Level: Telepath 9
Power Points: 17, XP (10,000)

Psychic Chirurgery
Level: Telepath 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1000 x level of power implanted)

Time Regression
Level: Nomad 9
Power Points: 17, XP (1,000)


Sorcerer spells with exp cost


5th level (1 out of 43)
7th level (3 out of 35)
9th level (2 out of 24)
Total 6 out of 370


Permanency
Level: Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, XP (500 – 4,500)

Limited Wish
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, XP (300 +)

Simulacrum
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP (100/HD of simulacrum, minimum 1,000)

Vision
Level: Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M, XP (100)

Gate
Level: Clr 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, XP(1,000 when calling a creature only)

Wish
Level: Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, XP (5,000)


So psions have 8 (not counting discipline specific powers with exp costs). Depending on the discipline the psion can end up with from 8 to 12.

Sorcerers have 6.

Pretty close unless you count them as a percentage of powers/spells then it goes something like this.

Sorcerers have 6 out 370 spells with exp costs. {1.6 % of total spells}

Psions have between 8 and 12 out of somewhere around 177 (I used an average of 16 powers per discipline) {4.5 to 6.8 %}. More than double the percentage.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't see your issue.

Both sides got a merit.

Psions for more powers. Sorcerers for more zeroth level spells.

If you give a merit for Sorcerers having more total spells, it totally ignores the fact that psions REALLY get more total powers of the same level.

What I am trying to say, and have been all along is that:

1. Sorcerers know more spells

2. Psions can know more powers of a higher level.

That is about as clear as it can get IMO.

No need to break it out any farther. 2 points: one advantage to sorcerers and one to psions.

Separating the sorcerer benefit out by saying they get 0-level spells (and then saying that is to be ignored for most discussions) belittles the fact that sorcerers have more versatility because they have more choices of which spells to cast. If a psion takes more higher level powers then he can manifest fewer powers in a day due to the increased pp cost.

 

[KarinsDad]

What I am trying to say, and have been all along is that:

1. Sorcerers know more spells

2. Psions can know more powers of a higher level.

That is about as clear as it can get IMO.

No need to break it out any farther. 2 points: one advantage to sorcerers and one to psions.

I've already broken it out as one merit to sorcerers, one merit to psions. You appear to be arguing just to argue.


Sorcerers do not know more same level spells.

Apples and apples.

Although they have their use, zeroth levels spells just skew the data. So, I called them out separately and I put them into their proper perspective. What is mostly important in the game is spells of a given level, WHEN you achieve that level. For all intents and purposes, knowing a bunch of zeroth level spells is a minor convenience at best. But, it is nowhere near the advantage of knowing 2 or 3 extra same or higher level highest level spells. And, it is not comparing apples to apples.

1st level – 3
1st level – 2

2nd level – 5
2nd level – 2

3rd level – 52
3rd level – 3

4th level – 54
4th level – 31

5th level – 542
5th level – 42

6th level – 544
6th level – 421

7th level – 5442
7th level – 532

8th level – 5444
8th level – 5321

9th level – 54442
9th level – 5432

10th level – 54444
10th level – 54321

11th level – 544441
11th level – 55432

12th level – 544443
12th level – 554321

13th level – 5444431
13th level – 554432

14th level – 5444433
14th level – 5544321

15th level – 54444331
15th level – 5544432

16th level – 54444333
16th level – 55444321

17th level – 544443331
17th level – 55444332

18th level – 544443333
18th level – 554443321

19th level – 544443334
19th level – 554443332

20th level – 544443336
20th level – 554443333


Same levels spells are important to compare. Zeroth level spells are mostly white noise and a very minor Sorcerer merit.

Your statement "Sorcerers know more spells" although factually correct is misleading.