The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Plane Sailing]

What the heck? I'm flabbergasted Did you even read my example this time? I normally wouldn't ask this, but you clearly did not or you wouldn't have been talking about Empower later on in your post.

This does not have ANY EXTRA VARIABLES. It is exactly what you asked for earlier: A comparison between Psion and Sorcerer with only the two feats on both sides. No Metamagic. No Metapsionics. Just casting a 10d6 damage spell each round using only GPP or GSP, and the Psion always chooses the smartest way to do the most damage. That's all.

Hi Rystil,

I think that all that needs to be said on this GPP/GSP issue has been said, and I don't want to see this thread devolve into an argument. You and Karinsdad have both made points which can be read by anyone else in this thread, you don't have to change each others mind.

So no more posts on the Power Penetration feats please (which also goes for Karinsdad and anyone else of course). There are other, probably more interesting issues still to talk about in this thread.

Thanks for your co-operation.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hi Rystil,

I think that all that needs to be said on this GPP/GSP issue has been said, and I don't want to see this thread devolve into an argument. You and Karinsdad have both made points which can be read by anyone else in this thread, you don't have to change each others mind.

So no more posts on the Power Penetration feats please (which also goes for Karinsdad and anyone else of course). There are other, probably more interesting issues still to talk about in this thread.

Thanks for your co-operation.

Sure. I'm just very confused by the Karinsdad's last reply, and I'd like to try to understand his thinking on why he made the last reply to me if that is possible without going back into the issue.

 

[KarinsDad]

What the heck? I'm flabbergasted. Did you even read my example this time? I normally wouldn't ask this, and sorry if it seems impolite, but you clearly did not or you wouldn't have been talking about Empower later on in your post. So I had to ask because I can't understand why you would accuse me of skewing my data by using something I did not use unless you didn't read it.

This does not have ANY EXTRA VARIABLES. It is exactly what you asked for earlier: A comparison between Psion and Sorcerer with only the two feats on both sides. No Metamagic. No Metapsionics. Just casting a 10d6 damage spell each round using only GPP or GSP, and the Psion always chooses the smartest way to do the most damage. That's all.

Sorry. Very very long day. I read what you wrote and then Empower entered my sleepy brain (it's late here). Drop the Empower part in the begining of that discussion.

I apologize.

It still doesn't change the fact that the Psion gets +8 to this and the game never has bonuses that high. He gives something up for that, but not something he has to be using and not something he cannot get back quickly.

It's not just +20% over GSP. It's +40% overall. That blows through most SRs as if they were not even there, even same level very high SR creatures. For example, a 10th level Psion vs. CR 10 Formian, Myrmarch SR 25, 70% defense drops to 30% defense.

10th level Psion vs. CR 10 Rakshasa SR 27, 80% defense drops to 40% defense.

Against lower SR opponents, it completely blows through the defense. 100%.

Nothing else in the game comes close to doing this type of thing. I'm not saying it is broken, I'm saying it is advantage Psion.

Even with the loss of the focus, it is stronger than GSP. IMO. Obviously, YMMV.

 

[KarinsDad]

So no more posts on the Power Penetration feats please (which also goes for Karinsdad and anyone else of course). There are other, probably more interesting issues still to talk about in this thread.

Thanks for your co-operation.

Sorry, I was writing another reply on that while you wrote this.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Sorry. Very very long day. I read what you wrote and then Empower entered my sleepy brain (it's late here). Drop the Empower part in the begining of that discussion.

I apologize.

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense to me now. I suppose we'll just agree to disagree on this and move on .

 

[Rystil Arden]

Hmm...our talk about GPP vs GSP showed me that you do at least agree with me that any Psion who wants to be effective with Metapsionics of any sort, GPP, etc, is going to need Psionic Meditation or else the Sorcerer trounces him due to the full round to refocus. Thus, assuming that Psionic Meditation is about as much a must-have as Natural Spell is for Druids, this gives a related advantage to the Sorcerer:

The Psion has to burn a 13 or above in Wisdom to get the feat, which in 25 PB is 20% of all her points.

The Sorcerer does not have any class feature or important feat prerequisite that requires focusing resources into any stat other than Charisma and the usual defensive stuff to stay alive.

 

[Plane Sailing]

S10: There is a slightly better selection of core Prestige Classes for Sorcerers than Psionic Prestige Classes are for Psions. Both have a couple of fairly nice ones, but the psionic ones have some real stinkers. Illithid Slayer is more advantageous than Eldritch Knight; Cerebremancer is about equal to Mystic Theurge, Thrallherd is about equal to Red Wizard (even giving up manifester levels); Psion Uncarnate is somewhat ok, but Elocater and Metamind tend to be much weaker than Arch Mage, Thaumaturgist or even Loremaster, mostly due to giving up manifester levels. Choice advantage to Sorcerer.

Might be worth looking at this again.

For instance

a) Cerebremancer may be better than mystic theurge because it is the same key ability score for both components (INT rather than INT + WIS)

b) Archmage is a bad one for sorcerers in that 3 out of his 5/6 feats at 14th level have to be pretty useless ones, considering that sorcerers normally (IMX) focus on metamagic so much. He also doesn't have many skill points to throw around, so meeting the skill requirements means that he is likely to have to shortchange either his Concentration or his one Cha-based skill unless he has Int 14+, which is not necessarily a given. The spell school knowledge also might be problematic. Much harder for a sorcerer than a wizard, anyway.

c) thaumatergist is a clerical class (lesser planar ally, rather than lesser planar binding). Frankly I think it ought to be either, but...

d) Loremaster requires 10 ranks in any two knowledge skills, which the sorcerer can't do until 17th level (!) unless he multiclasses, hitting his caster level and rate of spell acquisition further.

I'm not saying that metamind isn't weak (it is still so weak that it is almost the anti-prestige class!) and elocater seems aimed more at the psywar or soulknife. Just that I've never thought of the sorcerer as being 'well catered for' in terms of prestige classes

Cheers

 

[KarinsDad]

E8 – exp is more valuable than money. A character can ply trade (e.g., use profession skill or sell services) to gain money – he can’t do that in order to gain exp. While there are some sorcerer spells that require exp (wish for example) there are more powers that require exp. So really this moves to advantage S. (S14).

Didn't have time to get back to this one.

Yes, I had a hard time with this one.

The trade issue is a bit moot when we are talking big ticket Gold Piece spells or powers. You have to craft a lot of arrows and find a big market to get 500 GP or 5000 GP.

The trade issue comes in with crafting magical items, but then you are giving up Experience Points in order to trade that for Gold Pieces anyway.

And yes, I understand that Experience Points are like Platinum Bars to some players whereas Gold Pieces are just Gold Pieces.

But, that is a personal decision, not a game mechanic decision. In the game, the ratio tends to be 25 GP = 1 XP for many things.

Psionic Contingency is 15 XP. That's equal to 375 GP or about a second level potion. Contingency is a 1500 GP focus that is reusable.

Fusion is 50 XP. But it's a very potent power.

Genesis (an entire demi-plane) is 1000 XP.

Incarnate if 500 to 2000 XP. Permanency is 500 to 2500 XP for personal spells.


Many of the powers emulate spells which also have an XP category:

Mind Seed (3000 XP) versus Simulacrum (100 XP per HD, but it is not an attack).


Some do not:

Mind Switch (100 XP) versus Magic Jar. Yes there's a slight edge on this comparison because Magic Jar has a focus, not expensive material components.

Mind Switch True (10000 XP). A permanent fountain of youth. Can a Sorcerer even do this, even with Wish?


Some XP powers (Mind Switch True, Psychic Reformation, Psychic Chirurgery for knowledge transfer) are powerful ones which Sorcerers cannot emulate at all.


But, I'm not seeing anything significant here on most powers and similar spells. Maybe you could point out several similar powers / spells where the advantage is really obvious.

 

[KarinsDad]

Might be worth looking at this again.

For instance

a) Cerebremancer may be better than mystic theurge because it is the same key ability score for both components (INT rather than INT + WIS)

b) Archmage is a bad one for sorcerers in that 3 out of his 5/6 feats at 14th level have to be pretty useless ones, considering that sorcerers normally (IMX) focus on metamagic so much. He also doesn't have many skill points to throw around, so meeting the skill requirements means that he is likely to have to shortchange either his Concentration or his one Cha-based skill unless he has Int 14+, which is not necessarily a given. The spell school knowledge also might be problematic. Much harder for a sorcerer than a wizard, anyway.

c) thaumatergist is a clerical class (lesser planar ally, rather than lesser planar binding). Frankly I think it ought to be either, but...

d) Loremaster requires 10 ranks in any two knowledge skills, which the sorcerer can't do until 17th level (!) unless he multiclasses, hitting his caster level and rate of spell acquisition further.

I'm not saying that metamind isn't weak (it is still so weak that it is almost the anti-prestige class!) and elocater seems aimed more at the psywar or soulknife. Just that I've never thought of the sorcerer as being 'well catered for' in terms of prestige classes

I changed it to Equal. Since this was subjective (and I did not originally have time to examine each of them real carefully), I had a hard time with this one.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hmm...our talk about GPP vs GSP showed me that you do at least agree with me that any Psion who wants to be effective with Metapsionics of any sort, GPP, etc, is going to need Psionic Meditation or else the Sorcerer trounces him due to the full round to refocus. Thus, assuming that Psionic Meditation is about as much a must-have as Natural Spell is for Druids, this gives a related advantage to the Sorcerer:

The Psion has to burn a 13 or above in Wisdom to get the feat, which in 25 PB is 20% of all her points.

The Sorcerer does not have any class feature or important feat prerequisite that requires focusing resources into any stat other than Charisma and the usual defensive stuff to stay alive.

Added. Thanks.