Rystil Arden said:
Example 1: Psion 10 and Sorcerer 10 vs opponent vs CR 8 Young Adult White Dragon SR 16 142 HP
Round 1:
Psion uses GPP does 35 damage
Sorcerer does 31.5 damage.
All Other Rounds:
Psion realises that he's better off never recovering focus because his feat is so bad, so he just does 24.5 damage. If he had tried to recover focus, that takes a full round, so he only does average of 17.5 damage per round.
Sorcerer does 31.5 damage.
Advantage Sorcerer!
I do not think you understand the reason I put this thread together in the first place. It is to do small incremental apples to apples comparisons and find out where each class has merit over the other. The problem with pulling in a bunch of different variables when comparing two classes is that you open up Pandora's box of so many possibilities that two disagreeing people can always view their own side as correct and the other side as incorrect.
That was getting us nowhere in other threads.
You are pulling in extra elements that support your POV while forgetting the other game elements which do not. I could do that too, but am trying to avoid that in order to be impartial. If I did that, I could say:
The 10th level Sorcerer has 3 (or 4) feats of which he used all 3 to do GSP and Empower. It took him a full round action to cast his Empowered Spell.
The 10th level Psion has 6 (or 7) feats, used 3 to do GPP and have Empower in the wings, and has 3 left over for other stuff. It took him a standard action to cast his Empowered Spell.
My PC Psion (at levels lower than 10), for example, could damage the Dragon, realize that she wasn't doing much damage, and then move away in the first round.
Or, she could stand still like the Sorcerer and use her Psionic Meditation to get back her Psionic Focus and have a high percentage chance of getting it back. Close enough of a chance that it is practically the same action as the Sorcerer (i.e. uses up an entire round to get extra damage and still gets back her focus most of the time).
She has options. The Sorcerer in your examples is standing there like a target.
Your Sorcerer has 15 Spells to choose from each round.
My Psion has 21 Spells to choose from each round, more if she used her extra 3 Feats to get Expanded Knowledge.
The Psion has more options.
My Psion could do GPP against the dragon at 8th level, your Sorcerer (unless he was human) could not do both GSP and Empower at 8th level.
Etc., etc., etc.
Suddenly, your example looks weak. The Psion kicks butt every time because she has more options and more powers to choose from and she can with a full round action still damage the dragon every single round for more damage than the Sorcerer does most rounds.
You then counter with a different example where the Sorcerer can do a Maximized Scorching Ray that does ... (or some such, I'm not really trying to come up with a better Sorcerer example here).
And we go around and around in a circle.
The Psion has a lot of choices, the Sorcerer has few. That's one of the reasons I wrote this thead. You and I could argue until the cows come home by throwing in extra elements for our examples.
If you do not do an apples and apples comparison like my original post, you can skew this anyway you want.
You are looking at this as:
1) Use GPP, throw in another metamagic feat (because I can do that and pretend this is still apples to apples), give up focus.
2) Use GSP, throw in another metamagic feat, give up move action.
You then look at the numbers and see that the Psion does a little more damage, but loses the focus, hence, you proclaim it is balanced.
The problem is that you are throwing other elements in that have nothing to do with just GSP versus GPP.
You have to look at:
1) Use GPP, give up focus (which is all part of the same action)
2) Use GSP.
Is getting 20% more umph balanced with giving up the focus and is getting 20% more umph not too potent in and of itself?
It depends.
The question is whether that disadvantage is worth the gain. If so, then it is balanced and we consider it an Equal Merit. If not, it is not balanced and you have to see who gets more merit.
So, I looked at the fact that GPP directly affects more powers than GSP affects spells (40% versus 25%).
I then looked at the fact that some powers and spells only have Spell Resistance and no save. This is where the Psion really gains an advantage here. When you have layered defenses, Saving Throw + Spell Resistance, the advantage of +8 over +4 is not that great and people blow it off. The reason is that it becomes a multiple. Instead of 90% versus 70%, it becomes 90% * 50% versus 70% * 50% (or some such). The 20% extra gain decreases due to being multiplied by the saving throw chance.
Granted, there are not a lot of those types of powers, but they do exist and many of them affect an opponent:
Destiny Dissonance
Dimensional Anchor, Psionic
Dissipating Touch
Energy Conversion
Energy Ray
Exhalation of the Black Dragon
Intellect Fortress
Matter Agitation
Microcosm
Mind Trap
Missive
Telekinetic Maneuver
Plus, it does affect the 100+/- powers where saving throws still occur.
I then looked at the fact that this is a bonus that can be achieved at any level for a Psion, even first level (even though it would not be useful at first level).
But, the thing that swung me is that nowhere in the game does anything give a bonus of +8. Nowhere. It is unheard of in the D20 system. Just because it can only be used once per combat (assuming a poorly designed Psion) does not make it balanced. It makes it pro-Psion. Hence, a merit.
Again, I'm not judging how large of a merit something is, I'm just doing apples to apples comparisons and seeing who gets the advantage.
If you come up with an advantage for the Sorcerer that is apples to apples, I will probably add it to the Sorcerer list (assuming it is not trivial and not super contrived).
Finally, Psions do not have to take feats that are affected by their focus. That is an option for them. Losing the focus and preventing something else from happening is an option for Psions. The focus point already has a merit and it is in the advantage of the Sorcerer.
