The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[Hypersmurf]

PS. Could you please drop the word "vice" in your posts. I have no idea what it means and hence lose the thread of what you are trying to say. I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets confused by it. Do you mean "instead of" when you write it? If so, please say "instead of".

You'll find the definition here.

vi·ce
prep.
In place of; replacing.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

My impression of Time Hop is even different from yours. I often use it on my allies or myself or objects. An ally it lying on the ground bleeding to death and you can't reach him, Time Hop them and you should have enough rounds to get into position to heal them when they return. Or Ready an action to Time Hop yourself if you are the target of a spell or attack. Time Hop an enemy's weapon or armor...

The only time I've actually used Time Hop was when we interrupted a dark demon-summoning ritual. We burst in just before the virgin was sacrificed - I told the Psion to Time Hop the virgin.

Once she was out of the way, we had the time we needed to slaughter the evil priests before she returned, and the ritual was never completed...

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The only time I've actually used Time Hop was when we interrupted a dark demon-summoning ritual. We burst in just before the virgin was sacrificed - I told the Psion to Time Hop the virgin.

Once she was out of the way, we had the time we needed to slaughter the evil priests before she returned, and the ritual was never completed...

-Hyp.

I think out of all the powers my Telepath has, that one must be the one I use the most. And it has the most utility uses.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Riga, regardless, Hold Person is a save-or-die proposition (or close to it). Time Hop is not.

Clerics get HP at 3rd level, while sorcerers have to wait until 6th level. Does that mean that clerics are overpowered in all matters?

What I am saying, is that you are comparing apples to oranges. It's like comparing Bless with Bull's Strength. Neither one has anything to do with the other. Other than taking somone out of combat for a few rounds. But Time Hop has MANY more uses. Just like Bless and Bulls Strength adds to "to hit" in combat, but Bulls Strength has many more uses that just "to hit" than Bless does.

And I never once mentioned about any class or power/spell being over or underpowered. Not sure what your comment there means. I just pointed out I have different experiences with Time Hop, that's all.

 

[Rystil Arden]

So, expending the focus is a consideration for the Psion, but expending the move action is not a consideration for the Sorcerer?

No, what I am saying is that we aren't talking about the Sorcerer here--we are comparing GSP to GPP under the possibility that the Psion could take both. If you're trying to draw a parallel here with GSP and Metamagic, it doesn't fit because GSP isn't an action, but it doesn't seem like you are. If you're not, then while you certainly have a valid point about move actions with which I agree, it is utterly irrelevant to our particular discussion.

Yes you are.

No, I'm not. I've explained it to you several times, but let me do so again.

Please explain which 3 feats you are talking about in the normal GPP example in your equations. I count Power Penetration and Greater Power Penetration.

On the other side, you are giving Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Empower.

Psion one has Power Penetration, Greater Power Penetration, and Empower Power as his three feats. Psion two has Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Empower Power.

Sadly for Psion one, if he chooses to activate GPP, he can't use Empower Power as well, but that is due to the inherent limitation on GPP, not due to not having the feat at all.

 

[irdeggman]

PS. Could you please drop the word "vice" in your posts. I have no idea what it means and hence lose the thread of what you are trying to say. I'm sure I'm not the only person who gets confused by it. Do you mean "instead of" when you write it? If so, please say "instead of".

Sorry, I assume too often that I’m dealing with a native English speaking group instead of an international one where English is not a native language. “Vice” in this context does mean “instead of”, while “versus or vs. means a comparision between two things – just in case I slip that one in accidentally.

The Psion actually knows more powers and can know more same level powers than a same level Sorcerer does spells (if you discount 0th level spells which I do and since I added them in as a separate merit).

It's not just that he can have more higher level powers, it's that he has more powers to choose from at every level. And if he picks the highest level powers, he has more of them as well.

What? He has more powers to choose from at each level?

161 total powers (not counting discipline). Depending on the discipline the psion gets between 12-20 more (average say 15) for a total of 176.
1st level – 42
2nd level – 29
3rd level – 22
4th level – 17
5th level – 12
6th level – 12
7th level – 12
8th level – 8
9th level – 7

Sorcerer
370 total spells
0 level – 19
1st level – 39
2nd level – 50
3rd level – 42
4th level – 41
5th level – 43
6th level – 43
7th level – 34
8th level – 35
9th level - 24

Psion gets more 1st level powers but he doesn’t get any 0 level ones so combine the two for a sorcerer to get 58 equivalent 1st level powers.

So the numbers just don’t back up your statement.

The psion can know more powers of any given level than a sorcerer can spells, but not more total at any time.

Haste does do this and I did not say Sorcerers could not do it. I said it is more rare.

What do you mean by more rare?
I mean you are constantly saying that a psion has a choice in his powers, well then so does a sorcerer. So rarity doesn’t play into this issue at all.

But, consider:

1) Psions can do Quicken Power. Sorcerers cannot do Quicken Spell.

True

2) Time Hop can be used to push an opponent into the future. In our game, it is used to push BBEGs into the future so that we can mop up their allies (if they have allies) and then mop up the BBEG when he comes back. Against a single opponent at 5th level, it can give you 4 PCs * 5 rounds per PC -1 (the psion only gets 4 rounds of additional actions) = 19 extra actions (or more if you have more allies). At 10th level, this jumps up to 39 extra actions. Against multiple opponents, each successful use of it removes 1 round / level rounds of opponent actions (which effectively gives the PCs more overall actions).

Ghost touch (2nd level) – paralyzes opponent

Slow (3rd level) - reduces opponents actions

Hold Person (3rd level) – Paralyzed opponent


How about the power word spells?

Talk about overpowering.

Power Word, Blind (7th level).

Power Word, Stun (8th level)

No saves.

Just a few off the top of my head. Any spell or power that reduces your opponent’s actions will increase the number you get to take. Multiply those extra actions by the number of allies present.

3) Haste is melee attacks only and it is the only example you gave under 9th level. All of these powers (and the Quicken Power feat) can be used to manifest additional powers. That's typically stronger than additional melee attacks.

Haste also increase AC, movement and reflex saving throws as well as affecting multiple allies from the first casting (1 per level – 6 at 6th level sorcerer). They then get more attacks. . .

Or better yet try the effects of Slow.
Affected creatures (again 1/caster level) can take either a standard action or a move action but not both in addition to the AC, movement and reflex save penalties.

While it won’t stop a caster from getting off a standard action spell it will prevent him from casting and moving. Also the wording says he “can take only a single move action or standard action each turn” so that means, at least to me that he can’t even take a swift action because of the spell text wording.

4) Just because two of my examples are discipline specific does not mean that Psions cannot get them.

But only one or the other and not both.

5) Temporal Acceleration occurs 6 levels earlier than Time Stop. 6 levels earlier is a significant advantage, even if it is not quite as powerful early on.

True but compare it to say Hold Person (3rd level) that prevents the opponent from acting – hence giving the caster more spellcasting.

 

[Plane Sailing]

One of the interesting quirks of psionics is that when Overchanneling is combined with the Talented feat, you don't faces any penalty for overchannelling any of your 1st-3rd level powers.

And frankly, some of the best powers are 1st level - a psion is often better off taking a 1st level power rather than a higher level power because when augmented it is just as good as a higher level power in every respect except ability to penetrate globes of invulnerability, and you can overchannel even augmented 1st-3rd level powers without penalty if you are Talented. Astral Construct is the prime example.

S4 I would actually call a wash rather than a Sorcerer advantage - psions almost never need to swap out a lower level power because augmentation keeps them all valuable all the time. Mind Thrust can just keep on getting augmented, while sleep or burning hands just runs out of gas.

S7, S8 also evens out - psion powers scale by manifester level too.

P12, 13 are much better than still and silent feats, since they are automatically present with no increase in spell level. A sorcerer would have to use a slot 2 levels higher for every spell he wanted to cast still & silent, psions get it for free.

Another potential advantage for Psions -

P20 They have powers to directly heal themselves (sorcerers have to rely upon indirect effects like polymorph or summoning creatures that can heal at very high level)

 

[Plane Sailing]

Oh yes - psionic disciplines are not particularly restrictive, so I don't think S2 is a sorcerer advantage, it is Evens.

There are spells from all disciplines in the general lists, and a list of 1-2 discipline specific spells per level. The thing is, you can get a spell from one of the other discipline lists by simply using an 'expanded knowledge' feat - and as per normal, a lot of the good ones (astral construct, energy missile) are low level and thus freely available. Only the 9th level discipline specific powers are out of bounds to the other disciplines!

Cheers

 

[Thanee]

Out of those 119 augmentable powers, only 25 produce unique affects and replicate novel spell affects when augmented (9.7%). This includes powers which can be augmented to change the manifesting time to a swift or immediate action, an optionly normally only available to traditional spellcasters in supplimental spells.

Ok, some not many. But from those powers you listed (which are not all for sure, Psionic Dispel is missing for one) a few will likely appear on most Psion's list, so this is an advantage, that does have impact in play. Besides, every damaging power also must be included, because of caps.

In fact, all sorcerers have a significant advantage here: all sorcerers have access to no less than 5 spells which replicate the affects of nearly entire schools of magic in the core rules only:

1. Shadow Conjuration
2. Shadow Evocation
3. Shadow Conjuration, Greater
4. Shadow Evocation, Greater
5. Shades

Yes, these spells give a lot of flexibility, but they also have a huge cost attached to them.

1) they only replicate spells of a lower spell level
2) they only replicate a fraction of that spell's power (only the 9th level one is close to the original)

The mentioned powers just give you two or more effective spells in one, no downside (unless you want to count the targeting restrictions, psionics often face, but I would see that as a seperate item, since it's one of the major downsides of psionics in general).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

Jackelope King, could we keep comments like to a minimum? It's really not neccessary to insult Thanee in order to make your point.

Especially if the presented list is wrong.

Besides, even if there was only a single such power, it would be an advantage (a really small one, tho).

Bye
Thanee