The Big Picture: Psions Versus Sorcerers

[KarinsDad]

Note that sorcerers cannot even Quicken their spells. A metamagicked spontaneous spell is cast as a full round action, which overrides the effect of Quickening it.

A sorcerer's only options for multiple spellcasting are time stop and shapechange (into a choker). It's a 9th-level spell either way.

Opps. I forgot. I'm so used to Arcane Preperation giving them the option that I forgot. I'll go fix that.

Thanks.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not quite--I did start out by making the assumption that the Psion has something else to do with the focus already (and I have never ever seen a Psion who didn't because it would be shooting yourself in the foot for non-SR monsters to do so and you can easily have the feats to do it)

I am comparing a Psion with GSP and Empower to a Psion with GPP and Empower (the latter of which he cannot use as a result of using GPP). That is comparing apples to apples.

You say the Psion had something better to do with the focus, I say that the Sorcerer had something better to do with the move action he lost because he Empowered the spell (and that is not just movement, it could be pulling out a wand or potion for the next turn).

Comparing 2 feats to 3 feats is not apples and apples. Course, throwing Empower into the mix is not apples to apples either. You should be comparing GPP versus GSP straight up.

In that case, the Psion does 29% more average damage in every one of your examples and may or may not give up one or more full (or move depending) actions (i.e. if it is the last round of combat, he might not really give up anything). If the opponent's SR is greater, then the increase in damage is even greater for GPP (e.g. 8th level character against SR 25 opponent, GPP does 50% more average damage than GSP).


Any of us can come up with alternate feats in order to make things look one way or another. If you just compare the relative feats though, it becomes more clear why this is a merit of Psions.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I might say that your impression of Time Hop is different from mine. I look at it as a type of weakened Hold Person. One can use a coup de grace on a Held Person, but not on a creature that has been Time Hopped. (The counter is that Time Hop can be used on non-humanoids, but the lack of coup de grace still seems a stiff price.)

 

[Rystil Arden]

You say the Psion had something better to do with the focus, I say that the Sorcerer had something better to do with the move action he lost because he Empowered the spell (and that is not just movement, it could be pulling out a wand or potion for the next turn).

Comparing 2 feats to 3 feats is not apples and apples. Course, throwing Empower into the mix is not apples to apples either. You should be comparing GPP versus GSP straight up.

In that case, the Psion does 29% more average damage in every one of your examples and may or may not give up one or more full (or move depending) actions (i.e. if it is the last round of combat, he might not really give up anything). If the opponent's SR is greater, then the increase in damage is even greater for GPP (e.g. 8th level character against SR 25 opponent, GPP does 50% more average damage than GSP).


Any of us can come up with alternate feats in order to make things look one way or another. If you just compare the relative feats though, it becomes more clear why this is a merit of Psions.

But in that way, you are blatantly discounting the opportunity cost of expending the psionic focus as well as all of those extra psionic feats that you made into separate bonuses for the Psion.

You have to look at the big picture. Based on the low percentage of creatures with troublesome SRs as opposed to situations where, for instance, Quicken might be useful, or Empower, or any of the other feats that expend focus, it would be foolish to have GPP as your only feat that expends focus. Therefore, it would be extremely biased in favour of your interpretation to look at a Psion who made the somewhat-absurd decision to never take any of those feats except GPP--the only possible reason for this would be so that you could discount an important opportunity cost.

To address each point:

I say that the Sorcerer had something better to do with the move action he lost because he Empowered the spell (and that is not just movement, it could be pulling out a wand or potion for the next turn).

This has nothing to do with the argument at hand--of course the sorcerer might have something better to do with the move action. You're right. We aren't talking about that though.

Comparing 2 feats to 3 feats is not apples and apples. Course, throwing Empower into the mix is not apples to apples either. You should be comparing GPP versus GSP straight up.

You keep say I'm comparing 2 feats to 3 feats, but I'm not. I'm comparing 3 feats to 3 feats, but not all 3 feats can be used in the case of GPP and Empower due to focus constraints.

In that case, the Psion does 29% more average damage in every one of your examples and may or may not give up one or more full (or move depending) actions

Again, your example is flawed because you are comparing Greater Power Penetration to normal Spell Penetration. Psions have three feats at either level 1 or 3 depending on race, and they are going to take useful feats against other monsters that don't have SR--the Psion with GPP and Empower vs GSP and Empower is a valid comparison.

If the opponent's SR is greater, then the increase in damage is even greater for GPP (e.g. 8th level character against SR 25 opponent, GPP does 50% more average damage than GSP).

I already mentioned that in my initial post. However, based on the CRs of opponents with that kind of SR, you're actually more likely for the SRs to be lower.

Any of us can come up with alternate feats in order to make things look one way or another

Which is what you did when you chose to reassign the feats in my example so that the one Psion didn't have GSP anymore.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Oh, I just thought I'd add that for all that I've played and GMed plenty of psions, I have never once seen any of them that would take GPP. Why not? Because they didn't want to spend two feats that would make them waste their focus when facing SR creatures for a better chance to get through when they could instead pull out one of several useful powers that don't allow SR when facing those creatures and automatically get through and optionally put Metapsionics on those.

 

[KarinsDad]

P19 – not true. Schism is a telepath only power and Fission is an egoist only power. Time Hop doesn’t give you extra actions – it sends you into the future and when you come back you get to perform normal actions – so essentially you get a chance to see where things are in the future. Temporal Acceleration allows only powers that affect the psion to be done, pretty much the same effect as the Sorcerer’s Time Stop spell, albeit a lower level power (6th versus 9th). Sorcerer’s Foresight (9th) and Haste (3rd) are more powerful with Haste being able to affect multiple targets. I’d say no advantage, but if really pressed I’d go with advantage Sorcerer due to Haste versus Time Hop.

Haste does do this and I did not say Sorcerers could not do it. I said it is more rare.

But, consider:

1) Psions can do Quicken Power. Sorcerers cannot do Quicken Spell.

2) Time Hop can be used to push an opponent into the future. In our game, it is used to push BBEGs into the future so that we can mop up their allies (if they have allies) and then mop up the BBEG when he comes back. Against a single opponent at 5th level, it can give you 4 PCs * 5 rounds per PC -1 (the psion only gets 4 rounds of additional actions) = 19 extra actions (or more if you have more allies). At 10th level, this jumps up to 39 extra actions. Against multiple opponents, each successful use of it removes 1 round / level rounds of opponent actions (which effectively gives the PCs more overall actions).

3) Haste is melee attacks only and it is the only example you gave under 9th level. All of these powers (and the Quicken Power feat) can be used to manifest additional powers. That's typically stronger than additional melee attacks.

4) Just because two of my examples are discipline specfic does not mean that Psions cannot get them.

5) Temporal Acceleration occurs 6 levels earlier than Time Stop. 6 levels earlier is a significant advantage, even if it is not quite as powerful early on.


This is a definite Psion edge.

 

[KarinsDad]

This has nothing to do with the argument at hand--of course the sorcerer might have something better to do with the move action. You're right. We aren't talking about that though.

So, expending the focus is a consideration for the Psion, but expending the move action is not a consideration for the Sorcerer?

You keep say I'm comparing 2 feats to 3 feats, but I'm not. I'm comparing 3 feats to 3 feats, but not all 3 feats can be used in the case of GPP and Empower due to focus constraints.

Yes you are.

Please explain which 3 feats you are talking about in the normal GPP example in your equations. I count Power Penetration and Greater Power Penetration.

On the other side, you are giving Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and Empower.

If you want to compare Sorcerer versus Psion with 3 feats each, GPP and Empower versus GSP and Empower, it becomes:

10D6 + 10 = 45 damage * 90% = 40.5 damage

10D6 = 35 damage * 1.5 * 70% = 36.75 damage

Advantage: Psion 11%

Against a higher SR opponent:

10D6 + 10 = 45 damage * 60% = 27 damage

10D6 = 35 damage * 1.5 * 40% = 21 damage

Advantage: Psion 29%

And, this does not include mind affecting powers where it is 90% versus 70% with GPP.

Again, your example is flawed because you are comparing Greater Power Penetration to normal Spell Penetration. Psions have three feats at either level 1 or 3 depending on race, and they are going to take useful feats against other monsters that don't have SR--the Psion with GPP and Empower vs GSP and Empower is a valid comparison.

No, I am only comparing GPP versus GSP. They do the same damage (ignoring the fact that Psions tend to do D6+1 versus D6 of Sorcerers), but GSP affects 70% of the opponents in your examples and GPP affects 90% of the opponents. 90/70 = 1.29.


So no, it is not as you originally claimed "a mathematical wash". You just skewed the data to look that way by giving the GSP case an extra feat of Empower.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I might say that your impression of Time Hop is different from mine. I look at it as a type of weakened Hold Person. One can use a coup de grace on a Held Person, but not on a creature that has been Time Hopped. (The counter is that Time Hop can be used on non-humanoids, but the lack of coup de grace still seems a stiff price.)

My impression of Time Hop is even different from yours. I often use it on my allies or myself or objects. An ally it lying on the ground bleeding to death and you can't reach him, Time Hop them and you should have enough rounds to get into position to heal them when they return. Or Ready an action to Time Hop yourself if you are the target of a spell or attack. Time Hop an enemy's weapon or armor...

 

[Dinkeldog]

Riga, regardless, Hold Person is a save-or-die proposition (or close to it). Time Hop is not.

Clerics get HP at 3rd level, while sorcerers have to wait until 6th level. Does that mean that clerics are overpowered in all matters?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Time Hop doesn’t give you extra actions – it sends you into the future and when you come back you get to perform normal actions – so essentially you get a chance to see where things are in the future.

You don't return to where you started.

It sends you into the future, and you stay there.

Watch Back to the Future, when Doc first demonstrates the Time Machine for Marty. He Time Hops Einstein ten rounds into the future. For those ten rounds, Einstein effectively does not exist, and Marty and Doc can act normally. When the duration of the Time Hop expires, Einstein returns to the time stream (in round 11)... but as far as he's concerned, no time has passed. However, it's still round 11, even though it feels to Einstein like it's round 2.

He doesn't then go back to the real round 2 with knowledge of the future.

-Hyp.